Allied International Credit

[steven4064]

Hi FallenAngel

 

Welcome to CAG. Keep us informed of your progress - we're all in this together

[FallenAngel152]

Thank you! I certainly will keep everyone updated!

[speedtrip]

Ok, here is the basis of my letter winging its way to court in respect of the o/d;

 

Further to the order made by District Judge ******** sitting at the ******* County Court on*********

 

I note that the claimant has now failed to submit any documents supporting their case despite being ordered to do so.

 

Given I first requested the Credit Agreement in ******** and in total have written to them ******* times which includes my interim defence (CPR 18) and AQ150 I am still awaiting of this document and other supporting documentation.

 

The claimant has had every opportunity to file such documentation and given the size of the organisation, it is not unreasonable for them to have filed such documentation on time at the first opportunity. As such they have failed to comply as directed

 

The result of this failure is that I am unable to file a fully particularised defence to the claimants claim as directed by the Honourable Judge******** as without the documentation which the claimant relies upon, I am unable to answer their allegations as set out in their particulars and I am placed at a severe disadvantage, as I am a Litigant in person

 

Therefore, I would request that the pursuant to CPR part 3.4, 2 © that the claim is struck out without further order

 

If this is not acceptable, then please refer this letter and the file to District Judge Henry to highlight Lloyds Ban’s non-compliance with the orders dated 19th May 2008 and for further directions to be issued.

[steven4064]

That should do it. I guess we'll have to waitand see if it does

[speedtrip]

Lloyds o/d stuff turned up today in ordinary post while I was out. It was dated thusrday last week so 5 days to reach me .... hmmmmm.

 

What is my position now given they did not comply in time and I have just written for move to strike.

 

Quick summary of what they have sent;

 

 

• Summary Document explaining balance
  
• copies of bank statements
  
• copies of overdraft letters which look real with t&cs
  
• they are unable to provide copies of enforcement letters of default notices (they say on their computer records)
  
• the refer to bank charges included in balance subject to oft proceedings (need to compare this v my own calcs)
  

my observations are there is no cooling off period or agreement to sign,no application forms for overdraft, no signatures so where is the agreement they refer to in the POC.

 

the default notice and enforcement notices cannot be produced and would they be deemed inaccurate as they would include charges

 

I will recalculate charges based upon the same interest they have charging me, i.e about 18%, would they court see this as fair? and would this put this be back in the postion I would have been if I had never received these charges. I suppose so if it included capital, and compound interest a t 18% it would and may reduce the claim amount.

 

I guess that they will rely on statements showing expenditure, overdraft letters, and the computer records saying notices sent out.

 

Look foward to hearing from you all as need to respond fairly quickly i guess, so where do I go from here?

[steven4064]

Still no credit agreement?

 

If they have effectively now complied, then ring the court and tell them (pointout that they are way over the statiutory period though).

 

I don't know if the court would see it as fair buyt there is case law to give authority for you doing it. There is an explanation in my Interest Tutorial under Restitution.

[speedtrip]

thanks steven,

 

Obviously this being a current account o/d when I issued S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) they said that S78(1) of CCA 1974 does not apply to current accounts (planned/unplanned). This is bacause the ACT does not require these agreements to be excecuted within the meaning of the ACT.

 

Now if they really believed this why are not using this in their POC, their recent correspodence as evidence, or law they intend to reply upon.

 

All I have recd from lloyds/sols are standard acks to my correspodence apart from one letter covering the above when I sent the SAR.

 

I have not had a direct response to my defence, AQ150 and have not anything they might have sent the court. I have no idea what they are sending/saying to the court, i did ring the court friday to see if anything had been received.

 

I will ring the court tomorrow to see if what documents/letters they have received that I should be aware of.

Edited June 11, 2008 by speedtrip
left out impt word

[steven4064]

Sorry, I didn't read the whole thread but took your referenece to the CCA to indicate that it was a CC or loan.

[speedtrip]

no probs ... my heads hurting just trying to keep up.

 

in their poc they refer to an agreement regulated under CCA 1974 so all im asking is to see what what agreement they are referring to and if they intend to produce this as evidence i am entitled to see a copy

[speedtrip]

bump

[speedtrip]

just checking mu understanding, so far I have only calculated simple interest on the penalty charges.

 

Having read your interest tutorial (thanks btw) it seems I should ask for;

 

 

1. return of penalty charges
   
2. return of interest levied by lloyds on the penalty charges (rate approx 18% apr) which has contributed to the overdraft.
   
3. simple interest on the total
   

the first two restore the position before the charges were applied and third compensates me for loss of interest had it been in UK Bank A/C gaining interest.

 

Am I right?

 

Are there are two calculations;

 

1. Charges levied prior to overdraft position plus simple of 8%

2. Charges levied in overdraft position plus contractual interest accrued on this part of the overdraft, plus simple interest of 8%

 

Do you agree?

 

 

Still no credit agreement?

 

If they have effectively now complied, then ring the court and tell them (pointout that they are way over the statiutory period though).

 

I don't know if the court would see it as fair buyt there is case law to give authority for you doing it. There is an explanation in my Interest Tutorial under Restitution.

[FallenAngel152]

Lloyds o/d stuff turned up today in ordinary post while I was out. It was dated thusrday last week so 5 days to reach me .... hmmmmm.

Funnily enough, all my correspondence from AIC have been dated at least 5 days before i get it. Either they deliver it by mule, or their tactic is to pre-date letters to give you less time to reply. Nice.

[palomino]

Funnily enough, all my correspondence from AIC have been dated at least 5 days before i get it. Either they deliver it by mule, or their tactic is to pre-date letters to give you less time to reply. Nice.

 

This is standard practice for solicitors - they give you seven days to respond and then wait five days before posting it to you.

This is so you panic when you receive it.

It looks like DCAs are adopting the same practice.

 

Actually a lot of businesses are now using UK Mail which does normally take five working days to deliver a letter. UK Mail doesn't have any delivery time commitments like the Post Office.

In the case of solicitors they either don't know or don't care.

Also, I don't think UK Mail provides a recorded delivery facility but someone may know better than I.

 

 

[Last Christmas I received a letter from a solicitor giving me 7 days to reply on the same day as a letter saying they had imposed a charge of £1500 because I hadn't. They seem to be unaware of delays in the Christmas post, but there again solicitors are seriously stupid.]

[speedtrip]

Re O/D and last few posts;

 

Spoke to court today and they have received statement.

 

They have a backlog of post and will take directions once they have caught off with the paper trail.

 

Got to get my head around this interest thing as I reckon this may actually eliminate the debt. I had previously been basing on simple interest along. However, if a permitted to claim back overdraft interest charged on the penalty fees this could make significant impact, plus of the course this makes the default notice and enforcement notice very in-accurate.

 

I will need a few days to concentrate on this.

 

BTW steven, had look at your tutorial and ss, thanks very much.

 

however, when looking at tab two in respect of the interest calcs it does not seem to calculate .... can you explain how the formulae works so save me time?

 

thanks

Edited June 12, 2008 by speedtrip

[steven4064]

st

 

formulae: firstly you need to calcualte a daily rate (DR) based on the APR:

 

DR = (1+APR)^(1/365) - 1 (In excel, ^ is SHIFT+6)

 

next you need to calculate the number of days (ND) since the charge was made.

 

lastly, interest (I) on a charge © is

 

I = C * (1 + DR)^ND - C

[car2403]

There is a mixed view on whether s.78 applies to Overdrafts.

 

IMHO, a s.78 request is the correct legal way to request the documentation (not necessarily a corrected executed credit agreement) required under the CCA for an overdraft. The bank will argue that s.78 doesn't apply, as there is no executed agreement.

 

Again, IMHO, I think a Judge would take the view that a request for information should be responded to with documentation to substantiate that request.

 

If they reply saying "we don't have to reply", they would be in trouble later on.

 

If they reply saying "we can't reply because this section of the Act doesn't apply, because... blah, blah, blah... however, here is the documenation required under the OFT determination for your information", that would surely sit better with the Judge.

 

Why would they not supply the information you've asked for? Either an agreement, or the determination information? It could be because they can't, rather than they won't!

 

Have you sent a DSAR already? If not, now may be the time, specifically asking for the agreement, or the documenation showing their compliance with the determination.

 

Why would I suggest this? If they can't supply the documenation under the determination, they won't have an executed agreement - that will mean the entire debt is completely unenforceable.

[speedtrip]

ok, thanks CAR,

 

i'll digest your thoughts and go from there.

 

In the meantime I have recd a letter from the courts; (still the o/d)

 

in summary ;

 

 

• the judge has seen a letter from the claimants sols and decided that as the claim inc bank charges currently subject to OFT High Court case this claim and any counterclaim is stayed pending results of that case
  
• in addition claimant must file and serve a case summary within 28 days of the test case being resolved.
  

they go on to say that they made this order without a hearing and if anyone objects they must make an application to set aside, varied or stayed within 7 days of receiving it.

 

obv i need to sit down and decide now what the best approach is but if their are great legal minds out there that wish to give their considered views and opinions i would welcome them.

 

i'll come back later.

[speedtrip]

also, i have just received the AQ with regard to the credit card agreement so will try and get head around that tomorrow. Got a lot going at the moment, what with starting new job in two weeks time

[car2403]

O/D;

 

As you're querying charges, (you are, right?) it was almost inevitable that this part of the claim would be stayed.

 

TBH, there's nothing much you can do about that, as you can object to the stay, but it's unlikely to be removed regardless - I know, because I had a claim stayed on day 1 of the OFT announcement/FSA waiver - and it's still stayed!

 

C/C;

 

There's some guidance on CAG how to complete it - is it a N149 or N150? (Bottom left corner of the document, in really small writing!)

[speedtrip]

Car, thanks for your reply;

 

Lloyds have in their evidence stated that the penalty charges make up a third of the debt.

 

The court ordered that they disclose this information

 

I am currently looking at the charges and interest as in my previous calcs i have only used simple interest.

 

Having read the interest tutorial it seems I should be claiming for penalty charges, plus overdraft interest incorrectly levied on these penalty charges, plus simple interest charged on the total which could reduce the debt significantly.

 

However, the OFT ruling once made may not be as generous as this or it may take many years to a get a full resolution if the banks keep appealing.

 

The question is, what is considered "test case resolved" by the court/judge, even if the OFT make a decision this year, if it is appealed what would then happen. Could it be stayed indefinitley pending the appeals being heard and a final decision made. This could take a long time and be stature barred by the time we know where we stand.

 

In my case this could be helpful as i would estimate that my charges and interest are circa 75-85% of the debt and on that basis I would settle but statute barred means that they can longer bring action ... am i right?

 

BTW I did SAR this and request evidence under CPR which is why the judge ordered disclosure and this is why they state the charges.

 

Sorry this is a bit muddled but just trying to see what the options are;

 

option1 - work out new calculations and see if lloyds will settle.

option 2 - wait out oft case to see if goes stature barred

 

thanks

[car2403]

Lloyds won't settle while the TC is ongoing, I would have thought.

 

Why should they when you might be able to reclaim at all?

 

Devils advocate...

[speedtrip]

btw car you were up earley today were'nt you.

 

so its just a case of wait and see what happens and how long it takes.

 

as I raised the charges issue last year with lloyds i guess the clock is frozen from that point, ie i can go back until 2001 and interest if upheld by the oft can continue to be added to the penalty charges until the OFT test case is resolved some point in the future.

 

the longer it takes the closer it gets to being stature barred, and if found in our favour after further interest added on this will reduce the debt.

 

a long wait methinks and i presume they should not pester me in the meantime?

 

thanks for your help

[speedtrip]

Ok, update on my overdraft;

 

as you know the court ordered a stay based upon the OFT determination, see post dated 16/6/08.

 

however, have just received a "Notice of Hearing" from the court which is a response to my request to strike out (see below) which has me a bit confused.

 

Quote:

Further to the order made by District Judge ******** sitting at the ******* County Court on*********

 

I note that the claimant has now failed to submit any documents supporting their case despite being ordered to do so.

 

Given I first requested the Credit Agreement in ******** and in total have written to them ******* times which includes my interim defence (CPR 1:cool: and AQ150 I am still awaiting of this document and other supporting documentation.

 

The claimant has had every opportunity to file such documentation and given the size of the organisation, it is not unreasonable for them to have filed such documentation on time at the first opportunity. As such they have failed to comply as directed

 

The result of this failure is that I am unable to file a fully particularised defence to the claimants claim as directed by the Honourable Judge******** as without the documentation which the claimant relies upon, I am unable to answer their allegations as set out in their particulars and I am placed at a severe disadvantage, as I am a Litigant in person

 

Therefore, I would request that the pursuant to CPR part 3.4, 2 © that the claim is struck out without further order

 

If this is not acceptable, then please refer this letter and the file to District Judge Henry to highlight Lloyds Ban’s non-compliance with the orders dated 19th May 2008 and for further directions to be issued.

.

 

Now this recent "notice" came after the Stay Order and is referred to as "Notice of Hearing of the Defandants application to strike out claim".

 

This is basically saying that in three months time there will be a hearing to hear my application to strike out.

 

Either the DJ has amended the stay (unlikely) and not reference to it or they crossed in post (likely) and not responded with reference to the court file, ie just acted on my letter (seems that way) which was received by the court and addressed to the Case Manager.

 

I suppose the only way to find out is to phone/write to the court to clarify matters.

 

Any views/comments?

[citizenB]

 

 

I suppose the only way to find out is to phone/write to the court to clarify matters.

 

Any views/comments?

 

Ummm, nope. Tis a bit confusing wouldnt you say ? Perhaps a phone call to clarify as you suggest.

[speedtrip]

Overdraft Update

 

Ok seems the original communication to stay was issued before they processed their backlog of mail and found my letter requesting strike out on the basis of the claimants lack of compliance with the courts orders.

 

As we know they complied a few days after the deadline but it remains to seen, if 1)if the judge decides they have complied or 2)whether it gets stayed anyway.

 

Apparently it has been listed so if anyone out there knows the procedure and what i should prepare for the 30min hearing 2 months from now that would be helpful,

 

Cheers