Ruthbridge / Welcome - No CCA

[meekle]

Dear All

 

Well the time is up - even allowing extra time for postal strikes Ruthbridge have now exceeded their CCA time request. So now what do i need to do? Do i write to them explaining that they have failed to provide the CCA therefore "poke off"??

 

On another point, Ruthbridge have now written to my wife this week, the same letter of "bankruptcy proceedings" that i got. Now, i dont recall this as a joint application, but it might have been i suppose. How else would they get her name? If it was a joint application, wouldnt the letter be adressed to us both? or at least if separate arrive at the same time as the same clerk would have proceesed the case?

 

Anyway, if it were a joint application, wouldnt the fact that my CCA request never showed up, kick this new letter into touch, or are Ruthbridge fishing for another 12+2 days by getting the wife to CCA?

 

If the wife asks for a CCA, doesnt that get them another 14 days to find mine? The letter is sent by a different clerk, and as yet, we have had no funny phone calls at all, but we have had a couple of postcards asking us to "call about a parcel"

 

Any ideas what to do in this circumstance?

[detectall]

Have they gone over the additional 30 day period of the cca request

 

From receipt of request they have 12 working days to comply after which the alleged debt is in dispute and consequently they cannot pursue you or anyone else for the debt until they comply fully with your request. After an additional 30 days they commit a criminal offence if they try to pursue the debt without complying fully to your request.

 

The following maybe of help re complaining about their lack of

complying to your request.

 

Best wishes.

 

 

This letter i found on here could be useful to you, add delete amend as required.

 

 

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY

Re: my request under s78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Thank you for your recent letter sent to me dated (date), the contents of which are noted. However, the reply received by me does not fulfil your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter, dated (date). Upon receipt of the original request the specified account legally entered into disputed status.

 

My request remains outstanding. An application form does not constitute a true copy of a credit agreement and that which you sent doesn't even contain all the prescribed terms and is not 'properly executed'. The statements sent do not correspond to the amount stated in your earliest correspondence and therefore they do not satisfy the requirement to supply me with a statement of account.

 

As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

 

You had until ( date) to provide me with the true copy I requested. After that date you entered into default of my request. Whilst the account is in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agencies (or any third party).

 

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the data subject to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

 

The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. Any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office.

 

The time limits, which are laid down in the Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 are clear. You must supply an executed credit agreement within 12 working days of a proper CCA request. If you fail to comply with a legitimate request the account enters a default situation and if you fail to comply after a further 30 days you commit an offence. You entered into a default on (date) and subsequently committed a criminal offence on (date).

 

Therefore you have 7 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint, otherwise your conduct will be reported to the Office of Fair Trading, the Financial Ombudsman and Trading Standards. Any investigation undertaken by them may affect your ability to offer credit in the future.

 

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Should you not have any signed credit agreement in relation to this alleged debt, please confirm this in writing to me.

 

I look forward to your reply.

 

Yours faithfully

 

-

[Curlyben]

This letter that your wife received, if it is for the same account then the current CCA request is still in force and they have failed to comply.

 

Now I'd wait and see what they try next.

[meekle]

Thanks for your replies. Currently (allowing for postal strikes - gave them an extra two days) we are on day 19 from the day the original CCA request was posted to them. Do i need to write to them to tell them the error of their ways, or do i leave them to blunder on towards the 30 days? Are these 30 days working days or calendar days?

 

The reference number on my wife's letter is totally different to the reference number on my letter, i assume it is because they have been written by two different gibbons at the zoo. The amount of money outstanding is the same - give or take £20. Should i SAR them as well, or should the SAR go to Welcome?

[detectall]

You would normally SAR the original creditor. Enclose £10.00 postal order, send by recorded delivery, keep proof of postage and don't use your signature on any letters.

 

This link will help

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/516-1-data-protection-act.html

 

Regarding the cca, the alleged debt is in dispute (over 12 days), consequently they can not pursue the alleged debt. Once the additional 30 days expire they are committing a criminal offence.

 

Amend the non compliance with cca request letter accordingly.

 

If you are sure the letter from them to your wife is regarding the same debt, no response need be given because the alleged debt is in dispute.

 

I think they're trying to be cute.

[meekle]

my wife has receieved another letter from them today, this time with a different contact name and refe number for the same amount, asking her to settle in full. any advice on how to tackle this as it is obviously for the same debt but they are muddying the waters by giving different ref numbers etc. should i ask thme for clarifaction on who is on th erecord of debt to prove that it is a joint debt. if this is the case, havent they broken some regulation by persueing a dent i have put into dispute???

[Curlyben]

I'd be inclined to file this under IGNORE and see what happens.

They know the law, let them play their silly games.

[meekle]

Thanks curly - i figured as much, i am just worried that if they have assigned her a separate ref number etc they might find some minute loophole to squeeze through. Just wanna cover all the bases!!

[Jeff2000]

Hello meekle,

 

 

When did you last make a payment on the alleged account?

 

Have you acknowledged this alleged debt in writing at all?

 

Companies like Ruthbridge usually chase after debts that have become statute barred, or are very close to becoming statute barred!

 

 

Regards, Jeff.

[meekle]

jeff

 

i have hecked my credit file and this loan was taken out in 2000 over two years. the debt was mainly paid back through me and PPI and then a defulat recorded in 2004. i personally can vouch that i have not made payment since 2002, whether the PPI has continued i dont know, however i would have assume d(obviuosly wrongly) that a 2 year oan lasts two years and would have been completed by 2002, not lurk around in 2004!!

 

I have already CCA'd them for the letter they wrote to me and they have defualted on that request. I await the end of september when they ahve exceeded the 30 days and get reported. I just didnt want to have to send another CCA in on my wifes part and potentially reset the clock on the CCA request if you see what i mean

[Jeff2000]

jeff

 

i have hecked my credit file and this loan was taken out in 2000 over two years. the debt was mainly paid back through me and PPI and then a defulat recorded in 2004. i personally can vouch that i have not made payment since 2002, whether the PPI has continued i dont know, however i would have assume d(obviuosly wrongly) that a 2 year oan lasts two years and would have been completed by 2002, not lurk around in 2004!!

 

I have already CCA'd them for the letter they wrote to me and they have defualted on that request. I await the end of september when they ahve exceeded the 30 days and get reported. I just didnt want to have to send another CCA in on my wifes part and potentially reset the clock on the CCA request if you see what i mean

 

 

Hi,

 

 

No don't bother with another CCA. The one you have already sent is legally binding!

 

You could SAR the original lender, asking for a copy of all relevant data for your account.

 

 

Jeff.

[meekle]

Just another quicky. I have looked but cant seem to find, is there a letter template for the - you have committed a criminal act in not supplying the CCA within the 30 peridod? Ruthbridge are now two days away from this so i want ot be fore armed!!

 

Cheers

[Jeff2000]

Just another quicky. I have looked but cant seem to find, is there a letter template for the - you have committed a criminal act in not supplying the CCA within the 30 peridod? Ruthbridge are now two days away from this so i want ot be fore armed!!

 

Cheers

 

 

Hi meekle,

 

 

Perhaps you are looking for something like this:

 

 

 

 

I refer to my letters dated XXXXXXXX which was delivered via recorded delivery to your offices on XXXXXXXX, and my follow up letter dated XXXXXXXX.

 

In my letter xxxxxxI made a formal request for a copy of the signed, executed credit agreement for the above numbered XXXXXXXX account under section 77(1) and section 78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act. In addition a statement of my account should have been sent along with any other document mentioned in the credit agreement.

 

The Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for this request to be carried out before your company enter into a default situation. If the request is not satisfied after a further 30 calendar days, Your company commit an offence. These time limits expired on XXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXX respectively.

 

As you are no doubt aware subsection (6) states:

 

If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

 

(a) He is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

(b) If the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

Therefore as at XXXXXXXX this account became unenforceable at law and it is now my intention to refer this matter to the enforcement authorities.

 

Any default notices or adverse comments your company have recorded on my credit reference file should be immediately removed.

 

Failure to respond favourably to this letter within seven (7) days of receipt will result in immediate litigation being commenced against your company without further notice.

 

I await your rapid response.

 

 

Yours Faithfully

 

 

 

Good luck, Jeff.

 

 

 

 

[meekle]

thanks jeff

 

will type out and post in the morning

 

m

[Curlyben]

Meekle, WAIT until they send a letter demanding payment before you send ANYTHING.

Also at the same time a report to Trading Standards would be in order.

[meekle]

curly

 

should i not inform them that they have defaulted? they sent me a letter a week ago stating that they have reconsidered the facts and that they would be willing to accept £xx per month to resolve, my initial raction was to tell them to bog off and supply the CCA request, but i waited until the truly b*alls up by missing the 12+2+30 as of today.

 

if i needed to report them to the OFT or similar, would i not need to prove that i have made all reasonable attempts to sort this out? Dunno, just need some perspective on how to deal with these sh!tehawks

[Curlyben]

Nope.

CCA is a game of "Who Blinks First".

WAIT and see what their next move is.

 

Before any reports are made you need to be able to prove that they are chasing an unsubstantiated debt, this happens after the 12+month.

[meekle]

i see, so its like playing a game of chicken then. well, i'm game

 

bring it on ruthless

[Jeff2000]

Nope.

CCA is a game of "Who Blinks First".

WAIT and see what their next move is.

 

Before any reports are made you need to be able to prove that they are chasing an unsubstantiated debt, this happens after the 12+month.

 

 

Hi,

 

 

This is correct! If they contact you again, asking for payments after they have defaulted, then they just dig a bigger hole for themselves!

 

Keep all letters you receive. You can then include copies in your complaints etc!

 

 

Good luck, Jeff.

[meekle]

well they have responded - with a signed CCA! i will know more about when i get home and read it myslef, but apparently it is signed by myself and my wife, and was taken out in may 2001, defaulted in jan 2004. the agreement was over 24 months. so the maths doesnt add up.

 

When i get home, what am i looking for in the document to check its authenticity and whether it is a genuinely enforcable document.

 

Also, now that they have found the CCA, i assume they can proceed with enforcement? what should i do now!!

[Curlyben]

Depends on whether the CCA is completely enforceable and contains all the prescribed terms:

 

 

S61(1)(a) CCA provides that, for a regulated agreement to be properly executed, it must contain all the prescribed terms of the agreement and conform to regulations under s60(1) – see Q1.14.

 

Reg 6(1) provides that the terms specified in Sch 6 to the Agreements Regulations are ‘prescribed terms’ for the purposes of s61(1)(a) and s127(3) – see Q8.2.

 

8.2 What if prescribed terms are missing or incorrect?

 

s127(3) provides that the court may not make an enforcement order unless a document containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor – see Q1.21.

 

If therefore any of the prescribed terms is missing, or incorrect, the agreement is not enforceable against the debtor, and the court is precluded from making an enforcement order.

 

 

8.3 What are the prescribed terms?

 

The prescribed terms specified in Sch 6 are as follows:

 

* amount of credit – see Q8.

 

* credit limit – see Q8.5

* repayments – see Q8.9.

* rate of interest – see Q8.6

 

Sch 6 was not amended by the 2004 Regulations.

 

 

Also check out Peter Bard's excellent thread on the subject: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/103383-agreement-enforceability.html

[meekle]

Curly

 

The agreement goes as follows:

 

Personal Loan Agreement Regulated by the Credit Act 1974

Parties: we welcome finances, address etc

Terms: The information shown below and terms over the page

Customer Number

Name and address of myself and wife

Loan Details

Amount to settle existing loan £xxx

Amount of new cash advance £xxx

Healthcare £xxx

Optional Payment Protection £xxx

Amount of credit (sum of above) £xxx

Acceptance Fee £xx

Total Loan (sum of above+acceptance) £xxx

 

Amount of repayment £xxx to be made one month after date of agreement, and monthly thereafter

 

Apr 57.9%

Rate of Interest 3.5% a month

Estimated Repayment Period 24 months

 

There are various statements about data protection act, customers declaration etc and then my wife and I's signature and the agents signature, address of agent "c/o welcome financial services" and date of signature

 

Seems pretty water tight to me, howver i only have the front page and not the terms and conditions as mentioned "over the page"

 

So, what should i do now? they have invited me to enter into a payment aggreement with them. Should i accept that?

[meekle]

well i sent off an SAR to Welcome Finance over a year ago and i havent even had acknowledgment back from Welcome.

 

I have sent a letter to Ruthbridge back in August saying that this debt is now in dispute pending the results of the SAR. AS it has now been over a tear since the SAR and nothign has come back, Ruthbridge havent contacted me - what shall i do? just sit it out and wait until Feb for the 6year timer to run out on the alledged default or shall i go guns blazing?

[42man]

The 6 year rule is when you either last made a payment OR acknowledged the debt, NOT when the default appears......It sounds like this debt is statute barred anyway.

 

However Welcome are ind efault of your request for a SAR....I would send them a letter of reminder, if they don't respond in a further 14 days, then report them to the ICO....who MAY compensate you....

 

They HAVE to respond....

 

As for Ruthbrdige send them letter 'M' from here... (send it recorded and do not hand sign it)

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/20758-creditors-dcas-letter-templates.html

 

Also if you get a letter saying 'EXPRESS DELIVERY' please phone us DON'T as this a trick that Ruthbridge try to get you to ring them !!!