Employment law can anyone help?

[hayley]

Hi all

 

I am hoping you guys will be able to help me with this one as you have always come up trumps but its quite long (well very long!!!) so i apologise.

 

My husband has been working for a company for 3 years, he filled in a holiday request form in February asking for 25th June - 11th July off, this was granted by his manager. On June 15th & 18th approved by his supervisor he had two days holiday leave, when he went into work on the Tuesday (19th) everything was fine and he worked as normal but when he went into work on Wednesday 20th he was called into the office by his manager who said that he did not have permission to have Monday 18th off he told his manager that it was approved by his supervisor (who was on holidays at this point) but his manager basically didn't belive him and then told him that he would not be paid for his holidays on June 25th - 11th July. At this point my husband walked out of his job.

 

On June 22nd he sent in his resignation but also on 22nd he received a letter off his manager asking him to attend a disciplinary on 11th July and stating that they do not pay holidays in advance and are only obliged to pay accrued holidays.

 

We went on holidays and he attended the disciplinary hearing to try and come to some agreement and show willing but basically nothing was sorted out we had a letter the following day saying that they were issuing him with his first and final written warning which would stay on his file for 6 months (but he had alraedy resigned) so on 17th July we sent a formal greivance on the grounds of refusal to grant holiday pay.

 

We then received a letter asking my husband to attend a greivance hearing on Tuesday 31st July. My husband attended the grievance hearing and was told they would get back to him. We then had a letter yesterday with the outcome of their descision which was:

 

The leave year starts beginning of May to the end of April each year since May you have taken the following:

 

3rd & 7th May (2 days paid)

25th June - 10th July (12 days unpaid) but this is where it has all stemmed from

21st & 22nd June - (2 days not paid) he walked out of his job on 20th

20th May (1 day unpaid) this was a Sunday which he does not work15th June (1 day paid)

18th June (1 day unpaid)

 

The above holidays total 19 days, the manager would have been within his rights to refuse the days over and above on the grounds of operational requirements (the manager had already approved them in February)

 

What we really need to know is if we have enough to take this to a tribunal, we have been looking up on the internet and ACAS say that an accrual system only applies in the first year of employment and that the whole of a statutory leave entitlement exists from the beginning of each leave year.

 

Any advice would be gratefully received.

 

Hayley

[hayley]

Hi all

 

I am hoping you guys will be able to help me with this one as you have always come up trumps but its quite long (well very long!!!) so i apologise.

 

My husband has been working for a company for 3 years, he filled in a holiday request form in February asking for 25th June - 11th July off, this was granted by his manager. On June 15th & 18th approved by his supervisor he had two days holiday leave, when he went into work on the Tuesday (19th) everything was fine and he worked as normal but when he went into work on Wednesday 20th he was called into the office by his manager who said that he did not have permission to have Monday 18th off he told his manager that it was approved by his supervisor (who was on holidays at this point) but his manager basically didn't belive him and then told him that he would not be paid for his holidays on June 25th - 11th July. At this point my husband walked out of his job.

 

On June 22nd he sent in his resignation but also on 22nd he received a letter off his manager asking him to attend a disciplinary on 11th July and stating that they do not pay holidays in advance and are only obliged to pay accrued holidays.

 

We went on holidays and he attended the disciplinary hearing to try and come to some agreement and show willing but basically nothing was sorted out we had a letter the following day saying that they were issuing him with his first and final written warning which would stay on his file for 6 months (but he had alraedy resigned) so on 17th July we sent a formal greivance on the grounds of refusal to grant holiday pay.

 

We then received a letter asking my husband to attend a greivance hearing on Tuesday 31st July. My husband attended the grievance hearing and was told they would get back to him. We then had a letter yesterday with the outcome of their descision which was:

 

The leave year starts beginning of May to the end of April each year since May you have taken the following:

 

3rd & 7th May (2 days paid)

25th June - 10th July (12 days unpaid) but this is where it has all stemmed from

21st & 22nd June - (2 days not paid) he walked out of his job on 20th

20th May (1 day unpaid) this was a Sunday which he does not work15th June (1 day paid)

18th June (1 day unpaid)

 

The above holidays total 19 days, the manager would have been within his rights to refuse the days over and above on the grounds of operational requirements (the manager had already approved them in February)

 

What we really need to know is if we have enough to take this to a tribunal, we have been looking up on the internet and ACAS say that an accrual system only applies in the first year of employment and that the whole of a statutory leave entitlement exists from the beginning of each leave year.

 

Any advice would be gratefully received.

 

Hayley

[poppynurse]

how many days paid leave is he entitled to per year?

ACAS or a union are brill for advice.

[hayley]

how many days paid leave is he entitled to per year?

ACAS or a union are brill for advice.

 

20 Days plus bank holidays

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Hi Hayley

 

There is a lot to take in with your op but I did notice that your husband walked out of his job.

Be careful-the employers could well argue that this was to them an immediate resignation and your husband didn't work the agreed notice period and could be seen as a complete defence by them.

[hayley]

Hi Hayley

 

There is a lot to take in with your op but I did notice that your husband walked out of his job.

Be careful-the employers could well argue that this was to them an immediate resignation and your husband didn't work the agreed notice period and could be seen as a complete defence by them.

 

Hi

 

Thanks for reading i know it is long, my husband walked out though because they would not pay him holiday pay would this come under constructive dismissal or not?

 

Cheers

Hayley

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Hi Hayley.

 

I only worked for 3 months with my most recent employer and I asked for a day off which was granted. (I was going to a job interview though I didn't tell them this).

 

However, a few days later my boss said that when I get my pay at the end of the month it will be a day short as I had time off. This escalated to such an extent that I quit as I knew I was entitled to be paid for that day, and in fact, for about 3 more days, but he said no I wasn't.

 

Holiday starts to accrue from the day you start work so I was being denied a statutory right which my employer has no defence to.

 

Although it gets complicated where the employer has certain times where their leave year starts and ends. But everybody has the right to 20 paid days a year-but an employer can count bank holidays toward that 20.

 

Speak to ACAS.

Good luck.

[poppynurse]

You really need to speak to ACAS.

[hayley]

Hi Hayley.

 

I only worked for 3 months with my most recent employer and I asked for a day off which was granted. (I was going to a job interview though I didn't tell them this).

 

However, a few days later my boss said that when I get my pay at the end of the month it will be a day short as I had time off. This escalated to such an extent that I quit as I knew I was entitled to be paid for that day, and in fact, for about 3 more days, but he said no I wasn't.

 

Holiday starts to accrue from the day you start work so I was being denied a statutory right which my employer has no defence to.

 

Although it gets complicated where the employer has certain times where their leave year starts and ends. But everybody has the right to 20 paid days a year-but an employer can count bank holidays toward that 20.

 

Speak to ACAS.

Good luck.

 

Did you take it any further?

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Did you take it any further?

 

I'm in the process of doing so now.

 

To begin a Tribunal you now have to give written notice to your employer your issues and allow them 28 days to consider them.

 

After that I will be free to begin proceedings should I feel I still have unresolved issues. These 28 days are very important and the whole claim could be struck out if not followed.

 

This is even the case even though my former employer gave me no written particulars of employment terms thus I had no knowledge of, and could not activate, a grievance.:-?

 

There are exceptions to the 28 day rule, such as you feel you may be subject to violence should you attempt the 28 day notification with your employers, so, for the avoidance of any doubt, I shall wait the 28 days and then file a complaint.

 

If they just ignore my issues they really have no chance as some issues are statutory rights and there is no defence.

 

Call ACAS. It's free and they are very good.

[hayley]

Hi

 

Just to let you know that i have rang ACAS and they have said 100% i have a case under Working Time Regulations and Constructive Dismissal. They said i had to wait 28 days from the date of the Greivance letter before i could take it to tribunal which was yesterday so guess what i will be doing after this. They also said that you must take it to tribunal within 3 months of walking out of your job.

 

Will keep you informed.

 

Hayley

[pt2537]

Hi

 

I would strongly advise that you consider joining a union. im a member of the Transport and General Workers union and they are a god send in cases like this. i have a tribunal action against my employers at present and while im a second year law student and feel confident in my ability to argue my case before the tribunal i have the union representing me at the tribunal, my employers have legal representation attending and i would expect your husbands employer would be represented at the tribunal if you decide on that avenue. its totally up to you about joining a union but its worth while in my opinion

 

from reading your thread, in my opinion it would appeear that you certainly have a case against your husbands employer under working time regulations re: holidays

 

 

good luck

 

regards

paul

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Hi

 

I would strongly advise that you consider joining a union.

 

Although a believer in worker's rights I can't agree-just from personal experience of course.

 

I was a member of the CWU and they were useless. Nothing but management appeasers. The postal service are in turmoil right now and 50% of the blame is because of their union who are clowns.

 

And if you work in an environment such as this, and you have an issue with a fellow employee that leads to a Tribunal, then God help because only one side will get any sort of effective help. The other side will just be a token representation.

 

And guess who the biggest earners of front line staff for Royal Mail are?

 

Union reps.

[pt2537]

Hi Weird Al Yankovic,

 

my response was aimed purely with the fact that tribunal action was being considered, ultimatley you could consult a lawyer but it would be cheaper to join a union ( they are not all rubbish by the way) .like i said it is entirely possible that should this go to an Employment Tribunal then the employer could send a lawyer which is why i said join a union as they would supply a solicitor on behalf of the union to attend a tribunal

 

ultimatley hayley needs to consider what is best for her and her husband but in my opinion, without legal advice and representation she could find herself on a tilted playing field with regards a Tribunal

 

regards

 

paul

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Hi Paul. I did point out 'just from personal experience!!'

 

Of course it may be prudent, if nothing else, to be a member of a union should you need representation one day.

 

However, I paid ten years of subs, £1200, and got back naff all when I needed them. Their other work just consisted of selling us down the river to Royal Mail.

 

My advice would be to have a good, or even just a standard, home insurance policy which covers employment disputes and can cost as little as about £100 for a years cover.

 

I'd never again rely on a union but look after myself and then pass it on to a professional if need be.

[hayley]

Hi Weird Al Yankovic,

 

my response was aimed purely with the fact that tribunal action was being considered, ultimatley you could consult a lawyer but it would be cheaper to join a union ( they are not all rubbish by the way) .like i said it is entirely possible that should this go to an Employment Tribunal then the employer could send a lawyer which is why i said join a union as they would supply a solicitor on behalf of the union to attend a tribunal

 

ultimatley hayley needs to consider what is best for her and her husband but in my opinion, without legal advice and representation she could find herself on a tilted playing field with regards a Tribunal

 

regards

 

paul

 

 

Thanks everyone for all your advice.

 

Paul, Could my husband just join a union then even if the employer doesn't have one? If i joined now will they represent me for this case?

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Thanks everyone for all your advice.

 

Paul, Could my husband just join a union then even if the employer doesn't have one? If i joined now will they represent me for this case?

 

Have a look at your home insurance policy!!

 

Why bother with a layman when you may already have paid for a professional?

[hayley]

I have just telephoned my insurance and they said that i have free legal cover so i have telephoned the legal team they said we need to send in all the documents and they will let us know in 5 days whether they can represent us or not. So a big thank you!!!

[Weird Al Yankovic]

I have just telephoned my insurance and they said that i have free legal cover so i have telephoned the legal team they said we need to send in all the documents and they will let us know in 5 days whether they can represent us or not. So a big thank you!!!

 

Good result.

 

You are covered but they need to look at the merits of your claim.

 

So good luck!

[hayley]

Good result.

 

You are covered but they need to look at the merits of your claim.

 

So good luck!

 

 

Thank you sooo much for all your advice and all the best for yours too, i will let you know what happens.

[pt2537]

HI Hayley, thats a great result for you having legal cover under your insurance, my posts were aimed at the fact that the TGW union in my case have appointed solicitors to fight my case at Tribunal, to be honest i agree with Weird Al Yankovic in that some union officials are not so good when it comes down to the crunch but the union i use does have its advantages when it comes down to legal disputes of the nature we are going through.

 

good luck with your case

 

regards

paul

[Weird Al Yankovic]

HI Hayley, thats a great result for you having legal cover under your insurance, my posts were aimed at the fact that the TGW union in my case have appointed solicitors to fight my case at Tribunal, to be honest i agree with Weird Al Yankovic in that some union officials are not so good when it comes down to the crunch but the union i use does have its advantages when it comes down to legal disputes of the nature we are going through.

 

good luck with your case

 

regards

paul

 

You gave just as valid advice Paul which was as welcome by Hayley as all the other posts. And it was good advice.

 

It just so happened Hayley can cut to the chase and get the wheels in motion and, hopefully, for nothing!

[pinkerton_angel]

Hi Hayley,

That's a shocking story!! I'm a Personnel Manager and can't believe the way some companies treat people.

There are quite a number of points in your post, firstly, did he have any written evidence that those 2 days had been agreed by his supervisor or was it just verbal? have you managed to get a statement from the supervisor since? although prob difficult now as he will still want to keep on the side of the company. They can't turn around and say the other holidays would be unpaid when they had already been agreed, was this retaliatory or because they felt your husband didn't have enough holiday entitlement? it should have been dealt with completely separately. If they'd wanted to take him to disciplinary for those 2 days then they would have had to have investigated it all first, did they invite him to a meeting to investigate before inviting him to disciplinary? this has to be carried out now as part of the Consultation Regs. If they didn't follow correct procedure the tribunal should be a walk over for you.

How long was your hubby employed there? What was written in his resignation letter? presumably he made it clear that he felt he had no other option than to resign? they'll look for this for constructive dismissal.

As far as holidays go, it's normal for people to be able to take their full entitlement when they like but there is still an accrual system in place and if you leave part way thru a year then you will normally be asked to pay some back (if you wouldn't have accrued them all) or to be paid for any that you're owed.

The fact that there weren't any written particulars is also very dodgy, as this has to be provided within the first month of employment.

My experience of unions (from the employees side) isn't great either and to be honest there are loads of great websites out there to help you, things like ACAS, TIGER - just put 'employment rights' into Google and you'll get loads of help.

Let us know how you get on - give me a shout if you need any help.

pinky x

 

(A&L settled £4613 today - yippee!!!)

[tiaposy]

The company I work for has the same policy, ecrued holiday only- 1.66 days per month, however they only use it when it suits them!! For instance, our holiday runs from Jan-Dec. A fellow worker wanted to take his honeymoon in the Feb - for 2 weeks and was told no. (he had worked for the company for 18 yrs!). We still have 4 and a bit months to go to the end of the year, but I have used all my holiday up!!

No rhyme or reason and they are like that we everything...

 

You will need to check his employment contract, however if it was approved, something is seriously wrong here.

 

Good Luck

[hayley]

Hi Pinky

 

Thanks for your advice.

 

My husband didn't get a copy of his signed HR report, however they have admitted granting the holiday in one of their letters to us.

 

As far as the disciplinary i may not of made it clear, he was actually disciplined for walking out of the job and abandoning his lorry (although he didn't just leave it anywhere he did take it back to the yard) after the meeting where he was told that he would not be paid.

 

The resignation he sent stated that it was because a dispute over holiday pay, he was employed there for coming up to 4 years. They also owed him a days pay and he had not received it and when he enquired about it they told him that it was because he owed a days holiday pay can you belive the it.

 

We have filled in the form for the tribunal but just as i was about to send it we received another letter asking my husband to attend a grievance appeal hearing this Thursday. He is going to attend although he doesn't see much point as i dont think they are going to back down but ACAS said that he should go. So will keep you all informed.

 

Cheers

Hayley