General Form of judgement or Order!

[jo1006]

We have been sent a General Form of Judgement or Order form and are unsure how to proceed. Can anyone help us/ We have claimed before and won, however we received a hearing that time. Although this never got to the hearing stage, and LTSB settled the day before, it was a different procedure to this one.

If anyone out there in the ether feels they can help us with the next step we would be grateful - we have until 4pm on 15 th August to send the details they want.

This is how it is worded:

The claimant shall comply with the following directions,

a. The Claimant shall file and serve a statement setting out particulars of the breach of contract and any explanation (if such breach is alleged) the statement shall exhibit a copy of the relevant bank terms.

b. The claimant shall file and serve a schedule showing how the amount claimed has been calculated by reference to the individual item by description amount and date.

c.In the event that the claimant is seeking to claim for charges that have accrued more than six years prior to the issue of the claim, to identify such sums and to file and serve brief reasons why such charges are being sought.

d. In the event that the claimant is seeking to claim reimbursement in respect of interest charges on any overdrawn amount, the claimant is to identify such sums and set out in brief the reasons why such charges are being sought.

 

Please help!

[PeterAnderson]

I think it would be of help if you posted up the details of your POC and exactly what you have submitted do far

 

IMHO It would seem that in

Q a) here you would have needed your bank T&C's

Q b) your schedule of charges from the spreadsheet

Q c) you may be claiming beyond 6yrs therefore you would need details of the Limitations Act etc

Q d) are you claiming interest on charges or CI

 

Hope this helps a little bit

[jo1006]

Sorry, I am either having a senior or a blonde moment here - POC? I am sure I can post it if I know what it is.

Thanks for your help on the rest though - it just phased me a little as I never received this one last time.

[nevos]

subscribing and bumping

[PKea]

Jo

 

POC - Particulars of claim

 

Did you file using MCOL? or did you use the N1 form

 

At the moment it sounds like the court hasnt got a breakdown of all the charges you are claiming, as well as why you are claiming them.

 

If you can post your POC on here, we can advise you better

 

PKea

[asmudge]

Hi,

 

I have also received this N24 General Form of Judgement Order. Our case was against Abbey (at the time it was a paternership). I completed an allocation questionnaire on 18th of June, and heard nothing until now, it states

 

Upon the file being referred to the District Judge for Directions

 

Upon neither party attending

 

It is ordered that

 

.....the claimant do file....

 

a) a list of the dates and the amounts of the charges he seeks to recover

b) The reason given to him for the charges being applied

c) The contractually agreed charge at the time the charges were applied

d) The reason why the charges constitute a penalty

e) The claimants contention as to what a fair charge should have been

f) the claiments reason and justification for the figure in 1e above

 

 

I completed an N1 with what I assumed was this information. I have been trying to sort this out myself, as my partner feels this is all a waste of time, but after following all the forms and peoples success stories, I seem to have come to a brickwall. please help if you can

[PKea]

Hi,

 

I have also received this N24 General Form of Judgement Order. Our case was against Abbey (at the time it was a paternership). I completed an allocation questionnaire on 18th of June, and heard nothing until now, it states

 

Upon the file being referred to the District Judge for Directions

 

Upon neither party attending

 

It is ordered that

 

.....the claimant do file....

 

a) a list of the dates and the amounts of the charges he seeks to recover

b) The reason given to him for the charges being applied

c) The contractually agreed charge at the time the charges were applied

d) The reason why the charges constitute a penalty

e) The claimants contention as to what a fair charge should have been

f) the claiments reason and justification for the figure in 1e above

 

 

I completed an N1 with what I assumed was this information. I have been trying to sort this out myself, as my partner feels this is all a waste of time, but after following all the forms and peoples success stories, I seem to have come to a brickwall. please help if you can

 

If you can start your own thread, and post your POCs we will have a look at the documents you need to send in. You may have already sent them in, but its best to double check

 

PKea

[jo1006]

Hi

Thanks for being so prompt. We used an N1 form, and when you say particulars of claim, we used the format recommended on here, which I believe is tried and tested, and which we used last time. We included a full schedule of charges which has been included with every correspondence both with the court and the bank.

Can you let me know what information you need as I have everything but dont want to include anything that is irrelevent. I am just a little confused,as I am following the same format as I followed last time and I have only a few days in which to send the information.

Also, I have the court bundle ready, but dont know whether I need to send all of that.

It is all so confusing and worrying.:?

[nevos]

jo1006: You will not need the court bundle until you have a hearing date. Did you start your own thread?

[jo1006]

jo1006: You will not need the court bundle until you have a hearing date. Did you start your own thread?

 

Hello, yes, thanks for the reply. This is my thread.

The letter we received has a final paragraph which says

"The matter is listed for further special directions on 26th September 2007 at 3.00pm at*************county court, when the court will further consider the matter and give such further directions as are necessary to enable the matter to proceed to trial.

 

This is where I am confused, as I have followed the same template as last time (when LTSB solicitors contacted us the day before with a full offer) and I cannot understand what has changed.

 

We sent the particulars of the breach of contract in our first communication with the court on the N1 form, we also sent a full schedule of charges including each item by name, amount and date.

We are not seeking re-imbursement going back over 6 years (or werent before this messing around - now it is over 6 yearsm but only because of the time it has taken to get to this point)

 

The one that is troubling me is point d: In the event that the Claimant is seeking to claim reimbursement in respect fo interest charged on any overdrawn amount, the claimant is to identify such sums and set out in brief the reasons why such charges are being sought... (we are not claiming interest on overdrawn amounts as we had previously been informed on this site that we could not do so)

 

I feel that the courts are now making us jump through hoops along with the banks. It is very very disheartening, but we will plod on. I feel in my gut that we wont win this one, and it will be struck out.

Just one more thing (sorry) Do we have to send copies of this to SC&M?

[jo1006]

Jo

 

POC - Particulars of claim

 

Did you file using MCOL? or did you use the N1 form

 

At the moment it sounds like the court hasnt got a breakdown of all the charges you are claiming, as well as why you are claiming them.

 

If you can post your POC on here, we can advise you better

 

PKea

 

Thanks PKea,

Here are our pocs

1.The claimants had accounts******** and******* with the defendant which were opened on or around 1988 and suspended in 2006.

2.During the period in which the accounts have been operating the defendant debited numerous charges to the accounts in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the claimant and also charged interest on the charges once applied. The claimant understands that the defendand contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the claimant.

3.a list of the charges applied to both accounts are attached to those particulars of claim.

4.The claimant contends that: (a)The charges debited to the account are punitive in any nature; are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the defendant; exceed any alleged actual cost to the defendant in respect of any breaches of contract on the part of the claimant; and are not intended to represent or related to any alleged actual loss but instead unduly enrich the defendant which exdercised the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit.

(b) The contractual provision that permits the defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of the unfair contract terms in consumer contracts regulations (1999), The unfair contract terms act (1977) and the Common Law.

5. Accordingly the claimant claims (a)the return of the amounts debited in respect of charges in the sum of £****** and interest of £*****

(b)Court costs

©Interest pursuant to section 69 County Court Act as set out on the attached list of charges or at such a rate and for such periods as the court deem just.

 

So folks - this is it. And in reply we got this:

on form N24 General Form of Judgement or Order:

The claimant shall comply with the following directions by 16.00 on 15 August 2007.

A. The Claimant shall file and serve a statement setting out particulars of the breach of contract and any explanation (if such breach is alleged). The statement shall exhibit a copy of the relevant bank terms.

B. The Claimant shall file and serve a schedule showing how the amount claimed has been calculated by reference to the individual item by description, amount and date.

C. In the event that the Claimant is seeking to claim for charges that have accrued more than six years prior to the issue of the claim, to identify such sums and to file and serve brief reasons why such charges are being sought.

D. In the event that the Claimant is seeking to claim reimbursement in respect of interest charged on any overdrawn amount, the Claimant is to identify such sums and set out in brief the reasons why such charges are being sought.

 

Point A. I thought had been covered in the N1 form, and point B. (schedule of charges) has been sent already along with the N1. I am finding all of this disconcerting now.

 

I fall on my sword for help...please!

[GaryH]

Alright stranger!

 

You've got the new order from our old friend judge Beresford.

a. The Claimant shall file and serve a statement setting out particulars of the breach of contract and any explanation (if such breach is alleged) the statement shall exhibit a copy of the relevant bank terms.

b. The claimant shall file and serve a schedule showing how the amount claimed has been calculated by reference to the individual item by description amount and date.

c.In the event that the claimant is seeking to claim for charges that have accrued more than six years prior to the issue of the claim, to identify such sums and to file and serve brief reasons why such charges are being sought.

d. In the event that the claimant is seeking to claim reimbursement in respect of interest charges on any overdrawn amount, the claimant is to identify such sums and set out in brief the reasons why such charges are being sought.

Claim No: xxxxxxx

In the HULL County Court

jo1006

 

and

 

Lloyds TSB

______________________

 

STATEMENT IN RESPONSE

 

 

TO ORDER DATED xx/xx/xx

______________________

 

 

 

 

1. Relevant terms of the contract include:

 

i). There was an express term of the contract that the account was subject to ‘an agreed overdraft limit of £****'

 

ii) Clause 4.1 of the 1996 Terms and Conditions state;

 

“We will make any payments from your account when you authorise them in a manner which is agreed between us. You must have sufficient money available in the account to meet the payment. If we have granted an overdraft then we will make payments as you instruct us provided they do not exceed the overdraft limit.”

 

iii) Term 9 a) of the 2000 Terms and Conditions state:

 

“You are not entitled to overdraw the account if no overdraft facility has been arranged, or to overdraw the account beyond the limit of an arranged overdraft facility. You are not entitled to use your card if this would happen, but this does not affect our right to deduct the amount of the card transaction or guaranteed cheque from the account if the card is used.”

 

iv). Clause 9.2 of the terms of use of debit card states:

 

“If you do use your Card to create an overdraft we have not agreed or to exceed an agreed overdraft limit, you will have broken the terms of your account and you must repay the un-agreed amount immediately.”

 

v). Clause 6.5 of the terms of use of cheque guarantee Card:

 

“You must not write a guaranteed cheque which exceeds the amount in your Account or the limit of any overdraft we have agreed with you.”

 

vi) From the Defendant’s published charges leaflet which forms part of the Terms of the Account;

 

“If you go overdrawn without agreeing this with us we charge a higher rate of interest for unauthorised borrowing …We will also charge you a fee for any unauthorised borrowing….

 

Overdraft excess fee: £30 per day (Maximum of 3 charges in one monthly charging period.

 

"We charge you this when you go overdrawn by £10 or more above any agreed overdraft, or without any agreed overdraft. We will charge you this fee again on each day we make a payment for you that increases your overdraft by £10 or more.”

 

Returned item fee £30

 

"You’ll be charged this fee whenever there is not enough money in your account to make a payment such as a Direct Debit, cheque or standing order.’

 

2. Thus by virtue of the terms stated above the customer is contractually prohibited from;

 

i) Withdrawing beyond any agreed limit, and;

 

ii) making a cheque payment without sufficiant available funds.

 

The overdraft excess fee and unpaid cheque fee are therefore imposed upon breaches of contract.

 

3. If the court does not consider that the terms of prohibition extend to making any other payment without available funds, such as direct debit or standing order, the claimant will seek to pursuade the court that the effect and intention of the charge is identical to that of the other charges and thus the penalty provisions can, and should, apply notwithstanding the absence of an express term of prohibition. In this regard the claimant will rely upon the authorities of Bridge v Campbell Discount [1962] A.C. 600, Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre co Ltd v New Garage [1915] AC 79 and Interfoto v Stilletto Visual Programmes Ltd [1988] 2 WLR 615.

 

4. Further or alternatively, the claimant will seek to demonstrate that the charges are subject to an assessment of fairness under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. The Claimant will contend that the clauses permitting the defendant to levy charges are unfair under regulation 5 becouse contrary to the requirement of good faith they cause a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer.

 

5. Schedules detailing charges and statutory interest calculations are attached to this statement, along with all contractual documents quoted at para 1.

Attach a schedule of charges and the relevant T&C's. You need the ones marked as important from the docs library, along with the "Lloyds card use 31 10 04" ones - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/101412-document-library-work-progress.html#post953985

 

If your account wasn't open in 1996 then make sure you get rid of the paragraph in red!

 

Its not a pre 6 year claim is it?

[jo1006]

Hi Gary,

Once again you are a star. We have already sent in the documentation but will be following this advice and taking it in person to be handed to the esteemed Judge Beresford to add to our case files.

Thanks again and we will keep you posted.

J & M