walton v rbos

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paul do these phantom "internal accounting" account numbers ring a bell ?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-1503011.html

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I've been demanding a response to 11 letters sent to one finance company ALL Recorded Delivery, I have ALL the receipts downloaded and signatures from Royal Mail Tracker and what do the company say?

 

We haven't received ANY of them - yeah yeah, I'm asking THEM for money, different when it's the other way around so I'm not surprised by this Paul, the excuse is doing the rounds..

 

 

Sarah

 

think it's time for a "class action complaint" to trading standards about the company in question ....... me wonders if they are working towards any investors in people status .... so the correct authorities can be made aware of the situation .......... money box here we come :grin:

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The Court uses first class post for claims, so what makes you think you need any of this? These companies get away with this as the Court would be inconsistent in an approach in telling them they can't rely on it, then being hypocritical about it when they rely on exactly that, themselves.

 

CPR only requires a postage service that amounts to first class post - having proof of postage, which is free, must be a saver for most claimants, then? I can't see why anyone would use Recorded/Special Delivery, IMHO.

 

PERHAPS Someone would like to start a new thread on what exACTLY is first class postage : because we have we have various types of "on the cheap" postal delivery services

 

eg "tnt premier post": "ukmail business post" to name but two

 

and some companies have sent default notices , THE DATE OF SERVICE TAKING UP TO 6 DAYS : by the above methods which in no way constitute "FIRST CLASS POSTAGE":grin::grin::grin:

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RE "I expect to receive these within the next 5 working days."

 

suggest you put in "I expect to receive these within the next 5 working days after the date of service of this letter."

 

also get you recorded delivery slip or special delivery slip before you finish the letter so you can quote it [the tracing number ] in the letter...

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I'd disagree that it won't count, because of the intent behind enacting the section without discussion, which is mentioned above, in red.

 

Of course, you'd have tough time getting a Judge to look at Hansard (the record of the conversations held in Parliament when enacting the Act) and relying on the fact that this wasn't discussed because it was so obvious to Parliament that it should stand, without question, then getting him to apply that to your case. Bennion's view could help swing the balance in your favour, though, so it's worth including this in any bundle, IMHO.

 

 

ANDREW1 don't i just love seeing that quote reproduced time after time so here is "the match to add to your petrol"

 

Legislative drafting in England and elsewhere in the Commonwealth has now reached this high degree of precision. In 1963 Lord Reid said that “our standard of drafting is such that [the need to do violence to the words] rarely emerges”.12 Later Lord Bridge referred to “a modern statute, using language with the precision one expects”.13 Lord Roskill remarked that until comparatively recently “statutes were not drafted with the same skill as today”.14 The Court of Appeal said of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (drafted by the present author):

“. . . the draftsman has been careful and precise in his choice of language: for example, where ‘means’ is intended the statute says ‘means’, and where ‘includes’ is meant it says ‘includes’”.15

 

12. Luke v IRC [1963] AC 557 at 577.

13. Wills v Bowley [1983] 1 AC 57 at 104.

14. United States of America Government v Jennings [1982] 3 WLR 450 at 460.

15. . Office of Fair Trading v Lloyds TSB Bank plc, Tesco Personal Finance Ltd and American Express Services Europe Ltd [2006] EWCA Civ 268, [2006] 2 All ER 821, at [65].

 

SOURCE : http://www.francisbennion.com/2007/018.htm

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interesting quote below for all potential whistleblowers , step aboard anytime

 

Can company bosses prevent a member of staff from taking “confidential” information with them when they resign? Not necessarily, says xxxxxxx, our Employment Law Specialist.

 

“Information which you may regard as being classified, is often in the public domain, and if that turns out to be the case, there may be nothing you can do to stop former members of staff taking the information with them.

 

“As a general rule, in order for something to be confidential and owned exclusively by the company, it either has to be a trade secret, or something that you’ve been given in confidence which isn’t public knowledge.

 

“But even this isn’t a cast-iron guarantee, since the courts have recognised that all employees accumulate a certain amount of knowledge about the company which they’re entitled to take with them and use in their next job.”

 

John said there were a number of steps which companies could take to protect themselves.

 

“If you want something to remain confidential, make sure it’s clearly marked as such, and that its importance is flagged up with any employee who has access to it. Also, make sure that the contracts of senior employees and directors include restrictive covenants spelling out the position regarding the use of sensitive data.”:grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:

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the government will own more than 50% of rbs by 8am in the morning

 

the banks hate the word "partial nationalisation"

see the robert peston blog on the bbc website

 

presumably it is in order to put a link to the bbc ?

 

BBC NEWS | The Reporters | Robert Peston

 

 

 

 

quoting from the blog

 

" Which bank will be first to tap taxpayers?

Well I would expect Royal Bank to raise the capital it needs over the weekend. On paper its balance sheet looks okay. But its board has concluded it needs a further cushion of capital, perhaps as much as £10bn.

This need not spook any depositor or saver with RBS. In fact the contrary is true. RBS will be all the stronger for strenthening its balance sheet and accessing the Treasury's interbank guarantee.

But it's a terrible humiliation for RBS's chief executive, Sir Fred Goodwin - who broke all British records by raising £12bn in a rights issue less than six months ago.

After the eyewatering fall in RBS's share price at the end of last week, RBS's entire market value is now less than the cash it raised just a few months ago. And in terms of what can damage the credibility of a chief executive, it doesn't get much worse than that

Goodwin has told colleagues that his priority is to raise the desirable new capital, and that he wouldn't stay in his job after that if shareholders wanted him to go.

That's his coded way of saying he's off, possibly as soon as Monday - and he'll be replaced by the former Abbey finance director, Stephen Hester, who is currently chief executive of British Land.

But, to be clear, RBS won't be the only bank raising capital in the next few days."

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paul

 

hope you don't mind a link being put here to an important thread

 

"TREASURY COMMITTEE INVITES QUESTIONS FROM THE PUBLIC TO PUT TO THE CHANCELLOR ON THE BANKING CRISIS"

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/campaign/165996-ask-chancellor-question-banking.html#post1786440

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reading the south yorkshire police letter it says

 

"first we have to establish that a criminal offence has been committed ...."

 

if we assume that the south yorks police act on criminal offences does this mean we can form an orderly queue outside ROTHERHAM police station :rolleyes:as soon as the creditor commits a criminal offence when failing to respond to our section 78 cc act request and subsection 6 comes into play ???

 

 

 

section 78 subsection(6)

 

If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

and

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

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Update

 

A meeting with RBSs new chief exec is to be arranged... myself and another CAGger have been invited to attend.

 

Regards

 

remember to "count you fingers" after you have shaken hands":wink:

 

 

nice little thread here about how rbs treat their staff

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/employment-problems/164713-rbs-royal-bank-scotland.html

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may I quote from todays BBC website

 

" It's official.

 

We the taxpayer own one of the world's biggest banks, Royal Bank of Scotland, or 58% of it.

 

Only a tiny number of RBS's shareholders chose to buy any of the new shares in Royal Bank that were being sold in order to strengthen its balance sheet - which was inevitable, since the new shares were more expensive than the price of the existing shares on the stock market.

So the Treasury, on behalf of taxpayers, bought up the remaining 23bn shares at 65.5p each.

 

And, with last night's market price at 55p, we as taxpayers are already sitting on a loss of £2.4bn on this stake.

 

But the share price may rise.

 

What's more important is that this huge bank - which has just under £2,000bn of assets - is now majority controlled by the state.

 

Its shares will be in the hands of a special new company, UK Financial Investments Limited, owned by the Treasury, but described as being at arms length from it .............."

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TICK ............TOCK ............

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ummmmmmmmmmmmm.......

 

 

Media Centre

 

Contact Media Relations

 

 

 

Media Relations can only deal with calls from journalists. If you have any concerns about an aspect of our service please first contact your local branch. If you still have concerns please contact our Customer Relations Unit on xxxxxxxxxxxxx if you are a customer of The Royal Bank of Scotland or xxxxxxxxxxxxx if you are a NatWest customer. For general enquiries, please call the main switchboard on xxxxxxxxxxxxxx.

The Royal Bank of Scotland and NatWest media centre is open from 08:30 to 18:00 Monday to Friday. For out-of-hours media enquiries please call xxxxxxxxxxxxxx for the duty press officer.

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Nice Little File Attached

 

took the link down so it would not be cagbotted

Debt%20Mgr%20Solution%20Product%20Sheet[1].pdf

Edited December 7, 2008 by FANTASY CHARGES

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I assume Cobbetts were fully aware that their application had been dismissed because they had representation at the hearing but they still decided to forward me the order even though it was made out in error due to the transfer to the High Court.

 

I understand there will be more media exposure.

 

Paul

 

is it co-incidence that the free paper metro decided to run a front page article the day after the sunday times feature [don't believe the apparentsunday date on the link]

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/172220-millions-may-sue-over.html

 

then today we have more egg on the face [the egg brand certainly has been free range judging by the amount of owners it has had recently]

 

BBC NEWS | Business | Egg fined over insurance sales

 

so the frenzie continues to find the next financial story ...........

 

watch this thread

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and the next one keeping the momentum going in todays papers is ................

 

Bank challenge on unfair loans - Liverpool Echo.co.uk

 

"XXXXXXX[the name of the company has been deleted] director and sitting magistrate Alan Kneale said the consumer could also challenge any adverse credit associated with an unfair loan, apply to repair their credit file and even sue the lender for unfair damage to their credit file and seek compensation.

He said: “We have anecdotal evidence some high street banks have more than 30 different loan agreements in force and these have been added to, altered, plagiarised, cannibalised and amended instead of being rewritten from scratch, the result being many are unfair.

“We believe the end result for the UK’s high street banks will be a return to cautious, thorough and methodical bank managers, lending only to those good for the money.”

Edited December 11, 2008 by FANTASY CHARGES

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http://www.netsight.co.uk/news/articles/RBS_Zope

 

INTERESTING LITTLE link above from 2006 .....

 

WHILST THE CONTENTS MAY OR MAY NOT RELATE TO the accounts "created" by RBS the link gives an insight into RBS behaviour

 

the words " secret squirrel " come to mind

quoting from it

 

"

25 Jan 2006

Royal Bank of Scotland Embraces Zope

 

From time to time we're involved in projects that we really, really can't talk about - no matter how much we'd like to.

But today one of those projects was picked up by ZDNet.co.uk, which we reproduce here:

---

The Royal Bank of Scotland has revealed that it is working on a large content management system based on the open source application server Zope.

At the end of last year, the bank sent an email to a number of Zope mailing lists, stating that it was looking for a developer to join the CMS development team in its Corporate Markets division, which provides financial services to large and medium-sized businesses and serves around 75,000 customers worldwide.

The job advert said that the bank was looking for a developer with three years experience of developing with Zope and Python and "demonstrable experience of working with and scaling high volume Zope sites".

RBS refused to provide further comment on the project, but ZDNet UK found out some more details about the project from Matt Hamilton, technical director at open source consultancy Netsight, which worked with RBS on the project.

He said that the project, which has been going on for about two years, [MEANING STARTED IN 2004 ????? ] is one of the largest deployments of Zope that he is aware of and also "one of the most sophisticated", although he was unwilling to provide technical details. RBS is using Zope to underpin the intranet for its corporate markets division. This intranet is used daily by RBS staff, including its traders, for business processes as well as retrieving information, according to Hamilton.

Graham Oakes, an independent consultant who has worked on a number of proprietary and open source CMS projects, said that it makes sense for RBS to use Zope on its intranet, as it will allow it to keep its costs down and will not directly impact customers.

"You don't need an all-singing and dancing fancy Web site if it's not for your customers," he said. "People have more control over their own intranet, for example, if people have a problem using it, you can train them. You can't do that for customers," he explained.

Oakes said that RBS's decision to use Zope is likely to encourage other companies to do the same.

"Although Linux has become pretty well established, open source applications that are further up the stack, like content management, are closer to users so companies are worried about how usable it is and how reliable it is," Oakes said. "Every little bit of publicity helps ? if you hear about a large organisation using Zope you get more assurance that it's an enterprise-ready system and that it's going to stay around."

Gary Barnett, a research director at analyst firm Ovum, agreed that this migration is likely to attract interest, particularly as banks tend to be "fairly conservative adopters".

"A lot of banks are using applications like Apache and Perl, but it's interesting to see they're using Python and Zope as it's moderately hardcore open source stuff," he said.

Although many banks run Linux servers, the use of open source in user-facing applications is more rare. The Allied Irish Bank is migrating 7,500 users to the Java Desktop System and BPU Banca is migrating 8,000 workstation clients to Linux desktops, Red Hat announced last year.

The reason why open source migrations in banks are often kept quiet is due to the commercial sensitivity of projects, according to Barnett. Other potential reasons why open source migrations are kept under wraps were covered in ZDNet UK's recent special report, published last November.

Hamilton said that until RBS sent the email to the mailing list, the Zope community was unaware of the project.

"This was the first public announcement that they were using it ? the Zope community didn't know," he said. "I think this signals a change in thinking ? large companies are realising that to get the best out of open source they have to work with the open source community."

Hamilton claimed that RBS has successfully recruited staff with experience in developing Zope systems since posting to the mailing list. Companies are likely to struggle to recruit open source developers through the normal channels, such as recruitment agencies, he added.

"With recruitment agencies ? if you say you're looking for a Zope developer, they won't have a clue what you're talking about. If you get in with the open source community you can find the right people," he said. "

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As RBS have obtained a charge on D&Ds property the bank's processes outlined in a witness statement seem to contradict what they've told the press.

 

Qoute from the Sunday Times:

 

The bank claims the new loan accounts were created “purely” for administration and that it was never intended that the debts should be collected.

They were unable to explain exactly what the purpose of the “administrative accounts” was, why they had created them and how many customers were affected.

 

 

 

Contained in a witness statement submitted into court last year outlining the accounts purposes.

 

 

"In order to clarify the Bank's processes, when a customer's account defaults, the Bank closes the customer's branch account (in order that it can no longer be utilised), and the outstanding debt on that account is transfered to a new account set up within the Bank's Credit Management Sercices ("CMS"). CMS then use this account to track the debt and any interest thereon, with the ultimate aim of recovering the debt from the customer......

 

Regards

 

on the surface it seems the RBS definition of CMS as stated above is at a variance with the definition of CMS below

 

 

"The Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) has revealed it is working on a large content management system (CMS) based on the open source application server Zope."

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can some of the "rbs investigating team" have a look

at the neglected thread below which relates to the data protection act

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/credit-reference-agencies/175221-rbs-deny-data-protection.html