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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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I need your help! Do you have any old T&Cs?


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Thanks for your post Stax68, just found the current account internet page from when I opened my account. Funnilly enough, it says

If there are charges, they should be fair

It also states there's a £50 'buffer zone' which, when I mention it now, returns only blank expressions & a 'there's no such thing'. Guess they sneakily snuck in a change to the T&Cs at some point

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I am planning to write to HSBC to get a copy of the t&c's from when I opened my account. Could someone confirm if they think the following short letter would be appropriate?

 

I also have a copy of their t&c from 2004, I can photocopy and post them in if required, or take digital pics and upload them to imageshack.

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

Re: Account number xxxxxxxx

 

Please could you provide me with a copy of the terms and conditions in force on the date on which I applied for the above account, and also a copy of each subsequent revision until my account was closed.

 

In addition, please could you also confirm the dates my account was open between.

 

This information is required in relation to the legal proceedings I have commenced against you, case xxxxxxxx. I would be grateful if you could deal with this in a timely manner.

 

 

Yours faithfully

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I telephoned HSBC last week and asked for a copy of the 1995 t & c whne I opened my account, at the same time I asked for a copy of the managed loan agreement...... it arrived 2 days leater, still waiting ont he T & C....

 

But then 2 weeks ago asked for copies of letters sent whilst my pc was down........... still waiting on those.. so am not holding out much hope!!!:confused:

rockin all over the world

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I am planning to write to HSBC to get a copy of the t&c's from when I opened my account. Could someone confirm if they think the following short letter would be appropriate?

 

I also have a copy of their t&c from 2004, I can photocopy and post them in if required, or take digital pics and upload them to imageshack.

 

Personally, i would omit the bit about im taking them to court. They prob know about it, but its sort of rubbing their nose in it.

It may be worth more asking for a copy of the signed agreement between yourself & HSBC including the terms & conditions at the time of opening the account, that way if they do not comply & send them you have proof to show a judge you have tried to get a copy of the 'Contract ' you signed. (keep a copy & send reg post) you can also print a copy of the recorder del signiture from royal mail website to prove they received your letter.

Other than that its fine LOL :-D

 

Just my take on it

 

CM

Templates Library

 

GE Capital Won

Capital 0ne Won

Northern rock Claim stayed working on negotiation

HSBC personal claim 1 ''WON''.

£1800 plus full stat interest plus costs.

Claim started 14/02/07 offer 3/07/07

 

Next:Coming soon to a thread near you! :)

HSBC personal Part 2 'return of the Celicaman'

HSBC business 1 ' my empire strikes back' N1 claim POC in progress after usual offensive offer from bank

HSBC business 2 'attack of the Celicaman'

HSBC business claim 3 'bank account menace'

HSBC business 4 'Revenge of the CAG Member' the final insult ....................... 'Maybe'

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Thanks Celicaman, I like the idea about the signed agreement.

 

The reason I wanted to mention the court bit was to make it clear it was relevant to the case, so if it wasn't provided it would look bad for them. I was concerned if I didn't include that they could argue they thought it was just a general query and were too busy to respond to it before a court date (if one is set), or say it is not their policy to send out old t&c.

 

With hindsight, would it have been possible to include this under the original SAR to get my statements? If so, might it be a good idea to update templates to include this?

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The reason I wanted to mention the court bit was to make it clear it was relevant to the case, so if it wasn't provided it would look bad for them. I was concerned if I didn't include that they could argue they thought it was just a general query and were too busy to respond to it before a court date (if one is set), or say it is not their policy to send out old t&c.

this is a valid point you are making.

the bank has to supply personal data, but they are not required to provide information. This makes it personal, and of course looks bad in court if the bank doesnt provide it.

 

 

go on...... rub their nose in it.... lol!

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yes you are asking for personal data and as such they should / need to supply it. I have not looked at sars much as have not needed to get much data back, but as i understand it, by law they have to provide it.

 

CM

Templates Library

 

GE Capital Won

Capital 0ne Won

Northern rock Claim stayed working on negotiation

HSBC personal claim 1 ''WON''.

£1800 plus full stat interest plus costs.

Claim started 14/02/07 offer 3/07/07

 

Next:Coming soon to a thread near you! :)

HSBC personal Part 2 'return of the Celicaman'

HSBC business 1 ' my empire strikes back' N1 claim POC in progress after usual offensive offer from bank

HSBC business 2 'attack of the Celicaman'

HSBC business claim 3 'bank account menace'

HSBC business 4 'Revenge of the CAG Member' the final insult ....................... 'Maybe'

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yes you are asking for personal data and as such they should / need to supply it. I have not looked at sars much as have not needed to get much data back, but as i understand it, by law they have to provide it.

 

CM

indeed, they have to supply personal data.

but unsigned T&Cs are general info, not personal data.

If you tell them why you need it, it will look bad on them in the court if not supplied IMHO.

 

 

still collecting T&Cs by the way.... and it looks like we have a fair bit to go yet.

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I dont Know if it is any use but i have a letter of terms and conditions from an overdraft that we took out in 1996 when it was midland

yes, it is. :-D

can you scan it and send it to the email address?

 

thanks!

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Thanks for the advice!

 

Regarding t&c's, do you want the 2004 edition, or have you already got a copy?

 

Edit: Ahh, I see someone has uploaded a copy already in another thread. Not to worry. If you need any when (if) my bundle comes through from HSBC I'll pass them on.

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Thanks to everyone who has sent T&Cs!

 

Note to mods/admins - what is the plan for these T&Cs? Any progress on making them available on the site yet?

 

Sorry to hassle - all your efforts are much appreciated - but I just can't wait to get stuck into them, especially the pre-1999 ones. I have obtained some poor quality photocopies of photocopies of excerpts of the 97 and 99 T&Cs from D&G, and it looks like they changed 'you must stay within your limit' to 'you should..' around that time - though without making any real change to the way the contract operated, in particular the fact that customers were discouraged (deterred?) from going over the limit.

 

I'm not sure, but I reckon saying 'you should', without giving some reason why this is to be taken merely as advice, should be construed as imposing a contractual obligation anyway - especially when it represents a merely verbal change to the previous terms.

 

I have a lot more ideas on this topic - e.g. the obligation to repay 'excess borrowing' immediately and without demand might, with some argument, bring into play rule 4(b) from Dunlop ("It will be held to be a penalty if the breach consists only in not paying a sum of money, and the sum stipulated is a sum greater than the sum which ought to have been paid - Kemble v Farren"). I'm going to start a thread in the legalities section about the various issues once I have a bit more to go on...:D

 

cheers, stax

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Extract of 1997 T&Cs which I got from DG (a.k.a. HSBC UK Legal dept).

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/55086-stax68-hsbc.html#post846275

 

I only have those three pages, but they are quite useful ones, even though they are poor quality copies.

 

I have similar extracts covering 1999 - 2005, as listed in the post previous to the one linked above. Shall I send pdfs of the extracts? If so, should they be cleaned up (i.e. with the black backgrounds, marks, scribbles, punch holes etc removed as far as possible), or just as they are?

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Hello all. Well as I stated in an earlier post, I wasn't holding my breath, and sure enough, HSBC didn't deliver. Here's a scan of the letter I got in return.

 

HSBCtcreplycopy.jpg

 

 

Sorry they weren't more useful! Feel free to pester the phone number at the bottom of it and see if you can get better results though!

 

r-t-v

25/01/07 Statements collected online

27/01/07 Prelim sent

09/02/07 Thank you letter received (and duly ignored)

12/02/07 LBA on its way

27/02/07 MCOL filed

26/03/07 Defence entered

02/04/07 Notice of transfer paperwork received

10/04/07 Lattie's hastner sent

19/04/07 AQ arrived (never mind lattie!)

20/04/07 Last Chance letter sent to DG, AQ filled out.

08/05/07 AQ returned to courts, cc'd to DG

11/06/07 Request for the defence to be struck out sent after not hearing from the court for 5 long weeks.

14/06/07 Directions hearing set for the end of August. 10 long weeks away.

14/06/07 rob-the-viking waits yet longer......

23/08/07 DG apply for a stay, instantly granted by judge.

29/08/07 The waiting begins again, 7 months since prelim was sent.

 

"If you kick a Tiger in the ass, you'd better have a plan to deal with it's teeth!!"

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Hmmm, I'd say they are taking a pretty relaxed attitude to the facts ;) when they claim they are 'unable' to supply them.

 

I'll try that with the Revenue I think: sorry, I'm afraid I'm unable to pay tax for any year before 2006-7 as that was the last time I filled in a tax return. Should work a treat. :rolleyes:

 

HSBC's Legal department ('DG Solicitors') were able to send me extracts of old terms and conditions, I notice. Maybe Ms Harries means that her department isn't able to supply them (because they are bound by company policy).

 

I suppose it might be worth trying the organ grinder rather than the monkey - which I suppose means writing to head office, though I don't know who exactly you would address it to. Then if they said they were 'unable' to consider it, they'd be making the unbelievable claim that it was impossible for the company to do it. And if they decided not to pretend it's impossible, you'd have it in writing that they have refused outright to supply the info. Either way I imagine it might be of some interest to some section of the media: 'HSBC says - your contract is none of your business,' or whatever.

 

BTW they like claiming to be 'unable' to do things - they told me they were 'unable' to consider my claim for charges more than 6 years old. They now seem to have magically acquired an ability to do so, since they have openly and specifically offered to pay them all back. :eek:

 

QUESTION - Does anyone know if there is any law under which they are required to provide details of past terms and conditions - I imagine that data protection wouldn't do it as they would claim that the T&Cs aren't stored electronically against the customer's record. But you would have thought there'd be some comon law rule or something that prevents them trying to keep the details of a contract secret from the other party.

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Stax

 

Maybe try this ??

 

The Fraud act of 2006

 

Fraud Act 2006

2006 CHAPTER 35

An Act to make provision for, and in connection with, criminal liability for

fraud and obtaining services dishonestly. [8th November 2006]

BE IT ENACTED by the Queen’s most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and

consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present

Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:—

Fraud

1 Fraud

(1) A person is guilty of fraud if he is in breach of any of the sections listed in

subsection (2) (which provide for different ways of committing the offence).

(2) The sections are—

(a) section 2 (fraud by false representation),

(b) section 3 (fraud by failing to disclose information), and

© section 4 (fraud by abuse of position).

(3) A person who is guilty of fraud is liable—

(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12

months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or to both);

(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding

10 years or to a fine (or to both).

(4) Subsection (3)(a) applies in relation to Northern Ireland as if the reference to 12

months were a reference to 6 months.

 

2 Fraud by false representation

(1) A person is in breach of this section if he—

(a) dishonestly makes a false representation, and

(b) intends, by making the representation—

(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

(2) A representation is false if—

(a) it is untrue or misleading, and

(b) the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.

(3) “Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a

representation as to the state of mind of—

(a) the person making the representation, or

(b) any other person.

(4) A representation may be express or implied.

(5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it

(or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device

designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without

human intervention).

 

3 Fraud by failing to disclose information

A person is in breach of this section if he—

(a) dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is

under a legal duty to disclose, and

(b) intends, by failing to disclose the information—

(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

 

4 Fraud by abuse of position

(1) A person is in breach of this section if he—

(a) occupies a position in which he is expected to safeguard, or not to act

against, the financial interests of another person,

(b) dishonestly abuses that position, and

© intends, by means of the abuse of that position—

(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

(2) A person may be regarded as having abused his position even though his

conduct consisted of an omission rather than an act.

 

5 “Gain” and “loss”

(1) The references to gain and loss in sections 2 to 4 are to be read in accordance

with this section.

(2) “Gain” and “loss”—

(a) extend only to gain or loss in money or other property;

(b) include any such gain or loss whether temporary or permanent;

and “property” means any property whether real or personal (including things

in action and other intangible property).

(3) “Gain” includes a gain by keeping what one has, as well as a gain by getting

what one does not have.

(4) “Loss” includes a loss by not getting what one might get, as well as a loss by

parting with what one has.

6 Possession etc. of articles for use in frauds

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he has in his possession or under his control

any article for use in the course of or in connection with any fraud.

(2) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—

(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12

months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or to both);

(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding

5 years or to a fine (or to both).

(3) Subsection (2)(a) applies in relation to Northern Ireland as if the reference to 12

months were a reference to 6 months

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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Hello all. Well as I stated in an earlier post, I wasn't holding my breath, and sure enough, HSBC didn't deliver. Here's a scan of the letter I got in return.

 

HSBCtcreplycopy.jpg

 

 

Sorry they weren't more useful! Feel free to pester the phone number at the bottom of it and see if you can get better results though!

 

r-t-v

 

 

When I called the printers of the terms and conditions they stated that only an employee or someone higher up from HSBC can obtain copies of previous t&c's. Wouldn't this be worth a mention to HSBC that they can obtain old t&c's if they ask their printers?

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]If you think my post was helpful, please feel free to click my scales

 

 

A prudent question is one-half of wisdom.

 

:D

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Just bumping this thread back to the top. Any chance of getting it made a sticky? Also adding a list of the ones you've managed to collect so far so we can try to fill in the blanks.

 

just a though, keep up the good work!

 

r-t-v

 

p.s. The ones they promised under separate cover have yet to arrive.....

25/01/07 Statements collected online

27/01/07 Prelim sent

09/02/07 Thank you letter received (and duly ignored)

12/02/07 LBA on its way

27/02/07 MCOL filed

26/03/07 Defence entered

02/04/07 Notice of transfer paperwork received

10/04/07 Lattie's hastner sent

19/04/07 AQ arrived (never mind lattie!)

20/04/07 Last Chance letter sent to DG, AQ filled out.

08/05/07 AQ returned to courts, cc'd to DG

11/06/07 Request for the defence to be struck out sent after not hearing from the court for 5 long weeks.

14/06/07 Directions hearing set for the end of August. 10 long weeks away.

14/06/07 rob-the-viking waits yet longer......

23/08/07 DG apply for a stay, instantly granted by judge.

29/08/07 The waiting begins again, 7 months since prelim was sent.

 

"If you kick a Tiger in the ass, you'd better have a plan to deal with it's teeth!!"

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When I called the printers of the terms and conditions they stated that only an employee or someone higher up from HSBC can obtain copies of previous t&c's. Wouldn't this be worth a mention to HSBC that they can obtain old t&c's if they ask their printers?

 

i posted a couple of posts, recomending contacting the printers, why cant the printers supply copies of T & C's . THey are not priveledge info, they sent Them out to all customers.

Somebody did try Hsbc printers, but were fobbed off with confidentiality crap, its not confidential it was like printing books, we need to find a way to pursue this with all the printers if the banks wont supply copies.

i just dont know how

CM

Templates Library

 

GE Capital Won

Capital 0ne Won

Northern rock Claim stayed working on negotiation

HSBC personal claim 1 ''WON''.

£1800 plus full stat interest plus costs.

Claim started 14/02/07 offer 3/07/07

 

Next:Coming soon to a thread near you! :)

HSBC personal Part 2 'return of the Celicaman'

HSBC business 1 ' my empire strikes back' N1 claim POC in progress after usual offensive offer from bank

HSBC business 2 'attack of the Celicaman'

HSBC business claim 3 'bank account menace'

HSBC business 4 'Revenge of the CAG Member' the final insult ....................... 'Maybe'

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This thread is excellent, unfortunately I don't have any previous T&C's to help with it but a thought occurred. Is it worth collecting price lists too? Forgive me if this has already been thought of....

 

Thanks

 

Mandy

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