Lloyds victory in Birmingham - in perspective

[Lunatic Flea]

Surely the banks must provide a copy of the original contract after a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request). Mine did.

 

I have to say, even if I knew I would lose, I would go to Court simply to expose the banks behaviour and their practices which are gross.

 

If Kevin decides to appeal, I for one am prepared to chip in towards his costs. I've no doubt that given proper analysis, this judgement will be overturned.

 

For a Judge to give judgement on a case without even having sight of the original contract is beyond belief. Banks have far superior filing and document management systems than their customers, and if they cannot or fail to produce a copy of the original, the defence has no basis.

 

Come on Kevin, chin up, get some help and win your appeal.

 

Now that would be news, and would take the smirk off their faces.

 

Let's all learn by this as BF says, and be fully prepared instead of rushing in.

 

Tide

Hi. First post on this great site.I have a few questions which i hope someone can answer.

(1) Relating to the above posting has anyone else requested a copy of their original contract and if so did they receice one? Is the request made through your local Branch or Head office?

(2) Is the terms and conditions the same for whatever type of current account you hold? EG: I have had a current account with Lloyds for at least ten years. I used to have a gold service current account but upgraded to a Platinum account. Are the Terms and conditions the same for each of these?

(3) I have just received a "Notice that acknowledgment of service has been filed" Is shows that Lloyds intend to defend all of this claim. I believe Lloyds have 28 days from the date of service of claim form to file a defence. This will fall on Sunday 27th May. (notice of issue was served on the 29th April) Do i need to do anything with this "Notice that acknowledgment of service has been filed"?

Also as the 27th May is a Sunday and the Monday is a bank holiday do i have to wait until the 29th May before a go for judgement if Lloyds have not filed a defense? A snotty clerk at the County court told me i had to wait until the 29th which i don't think is right. Nowhere in the letters does it state that weekends and bank holidays need to be taken into consideration.

Sorry about all the questions.

P.S I am claiming £2174. This includes the £120 it cost to log a claim and £423 interest as worked out on the interest calculator on another website. I did offer to accept a without prejudice figure of £1800 before i listed it for court. Lloyds have never offered me a figure to settle.

[TideTurner]

Hi Broke, I'm in Liverpool court on the 23rd May, bit to far for you I'm affraid, pity, thanks for the offer anyway. I think I will have to try and find a buddie, any ideas how I do that anyone?

 

Pen,

 

I could be in Liverpool in the afternoon.

 

Tide

[reigate]

Please bear in mind that banks also read these sites so if we all start to waiver & panic, or give that impression, they will try harder and be even more obstructive if that's possible. A lot more needs to come out about this case and hopefully an appeal. The lesson seems to be that in the absence of the bank mr berwick should have asked for an adjournment or even asked for the defence to be dismissed as the bank were contemptuous

[Jobese]

i've won 7 cases, 2 in court against lloyds TSB and currently have a court date in august. My whole family used to bank with lloyds and they have all come to me being a civil litigator.

 

they state 'do not comply with rule 16.4 1(a) of the CPR and other things'....not very specific in my view and a generalised attempt.

 

lloyds use standardised text in their defence statement which is hilarious and they'll get the fright of their life when they receive my flawless bundle! what they wrote did not relate to me which i will enjoy bringing to the judges attention if it goes that far! i wouldn't be put off by the case won in birmingham as the principles of law cannot be necessarily applied to all cases.

 

anyone who needs free legal representation in croydon county court, please send me a personal message and i will see whether i can attend - for the good of consumer power!!!!

[passivenomore]

Subscribing!!

[Pliny the Penuriosus]

I of course agree BF.

 

This judge has just gone against the express wishes of Parliament by completley disregarding Unfair Contract Legislation.

 

Just why this DJ decided to put himself on enquiry we may never know. We all know that the banks are trying to hide their penalty charges behind the generic term 'service'

 

I understand that it is possible to obtain copies of the banks Websites before they changed the wording. I wonder could these be made available to claimants to produce as evidence in future litigation.

 

Also whilst they may be rejoicing at Lloyds I don't think they or any other lender should rely on this bad judgement to repudiate claims.

 

Fiinally I think this judgement may be a blessing in disguise in that claimants will now prepare better. Also if the banks ignore or flout the process by not submitting bundles etc claimants will now demand the courts punish them by granting orders in favour of the claimant rather than allow the amount of latitude extended to the banks at present.

 

I hope that this salutory lesson will have the effect of making us all even more determined to bring the banks to book

[Advocate]

Having just read the judgment, I have the following observation:

 

1. The judge holds that the customer is not in breach of contract where he or she enters into an unauthorised overdraft situation.

 

This is very important, as being in breach of contract is the foundation for attacking any consequent charges as penalties. If the charge is not in response to a breach of contract, the law on penalty charges cannot be invoked to challenge the charges; that law only applies in a breach of contract situation.

 

Breach of contract is also a necessary precursor to invoking UTCCR para 1(e) of schedule 2 to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations.

 

Any appeal against this judgment would require to counter this legal ruling by demonstrating that the customer is indeed in breach of contract when they go beyond authorised limits. This requires an examination of the terms and conditions (Ts&Cs) of the contract to see if it says anywhere that the customer is obliged to keep his account within his authorised overdraft level (i.e. placing them under an obligation to maintain their account within agreed levels.).

 

I should add that the comments which seek to portray this judgment as irrelevant due to its being from a court of little standing are misinterpreting its import. It is a judicial decision that the customer is not in breach of contract and any case which goes the distance again will only be won if the pursuer/plaintiff can show that the customer is in breach. This judge has found this not to be the case on the Ts&Cs he has seen, it is therefore important to look more closely at the Ts&Cs of your own account to determine if your contract imposes an obligation to maintain the account within certain levels. Only then will you be able to say that you are in breach and thereby bring the law on penalty charges and UTCCR into play.

 

This should be the focus for the present. Eyes down...

[candy_xyz]

Hello all, firstly I will also contribute to an appeal for the Birmingham case. I am in court on 22nd May, and although this means I actually have to prepare (which I am a bit nervous about) we need to get this into perspective. The rulings and reimbursements so far prove that.

 

That sed - can anyone help me....

1- i used a standard letter from this site saying the fees they had charges were unreasonable and not a true reflection of their costs etc

2- unlike some, my banks are still calling these charges

3-they sent a letter today saying a full investigation has been carried out and the 'charges have been correctly applied to the account'

 

I am thinking that my case will therefore focus on the fee's being unreasable and not a true refelction of costs....what do u think?

 

Also

1- what is a bundle, do i have to submit it in a particular format?

 

All help is appreaciated!!!

[Praetorian]

I have just joined this forum and i have read the article by Bankfodder but what he hasn't mentioned is this. What if this judge is now sitting with other bank charge claims that he is about to hear. I seen a posting somewhere around here that said he was the main judge in Birmingham who handles Bank claims. This may or may not be correct but if he does have other claims in is control won't that be bad news for all of us? and are there others on the forum who have a date with judge Dread?? Is he likely to be able hand down another damming judgement this time to another Bank??? Any suggestions ???

[mark capel]

JUDGE DREAD ! GIMPER OR GENIUS ?

What if the judge is actually on our side ?

Surly Kev is in a far superior position to force his bank into the witness box then Mr. Brennon .

If he appeals it will have to go to full disclosure, wont it ?

And the bank will find it differcult to squirm out of it by chucking cash at kev especially as they are being appealed against rather than litigated against and are now very much in the public eye:rolleyes:

......just a thought !

[Soniam1981]

I am, like many, very nervous now, however I am not put off. I was willing to go to the court from the very beginning. I have had my account since 1993/94 and no longer have my current account T&C's. If anyone has a copy they would be willing to share they would be very very gratefully received and helpful towards fellow LTSB claimants.

[garyH&gem]

JUDGE DREAD ! GIMPER OR GENIUS ?

 

What if the judge is actually on our side ?

 

Surly Kev is in a far superior position to force his bank into the witness box then Mr. Brennon .

 

If he appeals it will have to go to full disclosure, wont it ?

 

And the bank will find it differcult to squirm out of it by chucking cash at kev especially as they are being appealed against rather than litigated against and are now very much in the public eye:rolleyes:

 

......just a thought !

 

Speaking of Mr Brennan , In the final part of District Judge Cooke's Approved Judgment, he states:

 

"Mr Berwick submitted a letter prepared on his behalf by Mr Tom Brennan, a non practising barrister"

 

I may be barking up the wrong tree, but isn’t he the lad that’s forcing NatWest to court even after they have offered him a full settlement.

 

I’m not one for conspiracy theories but what relation is Tom Brennan to Kev’s claim or is Tom offering some sort of template letter to be included in the court bundle?

[Praetorian]

I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Tom Brennan appears to have received a great deal of publicity towards his cause and is a learned fellow of law and therefore, he has kindly offered support to Mr Berwick's cause, nothing conspiring about that is there?

[paulwlton]

I'm reading the terms for an RBS account: You will also be responsible for paying any costs incurred by us in connection with the overdraft wether as a result of you breaking the terms of the arrangement or not. Another term states:The overdraft limit should not be exceeded.

 

This term relates to an indemnity clause which if the charge is more than the banks actual losses then it is invalid as per UCTA.

 

It is inconceivable that these charges are a for a service.

[TideTurner]

Soniam,

 

Do a full SAR then telephone them to make sure any missing information is forwarded, including copies of your contract, and any other documents you think exist.

 

If anybody has to be scared, it is those who have damaged others, been found out, and must now face the consequences.

Time to stand up to these bullies.

 

Tide

[TideTurner]

I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Tom Brennan appears to have received a great deal of publicity towards his cause and is a learned fellow of law and therefore, he has kindly offered support to Mr Berwick's cause, nothing conspiring about that is there?

 

Am I right in understanding Tom Brennan was only after 6 years?

[Amadaus_11]

Hi Jobese

I'm really terified of this whole process and think i'm going to mess up as I don't understand all this court business.

I have a claim against Barclays Bank and followed the instructions to make a claim on line. Barclays put in an acknowledgement on the 14th day. I then today another 14 days later put in a defence. Does this now mean i will have to go to court? Croydon is my local court, what should i do now?

with this win by Lloyds I now think that I will loose as Barclays will probably now turn up in court as they seem to be keeping trackof my claim. I would get a solicitor if I could afford one My claim in for £4000 including interest and i was hoping to use this to get rid of my overdraft and other debts.

 

Any help or advise would be much appreciated.

[pugsley]

have to agree an appeal would be good, whether that was the intention? I'm not so sure, but who knows. The judge seems to have left it wide open for an appeal though doesn't he?

 

I wonder if the banks will start to prepare bundles suddenly.

 

BTW can I ask for the terms and conditions without paying out another 10 pounds for SAR (I've got my statements from Abbey already via SAR,but no T & C's).

[TideTurner]

You can stipulate that you haven't received all the information you are entitled to, including the T&C's. Also ask for all computer logs and emails.

 

Tide

[Big Man]

Morning All

Well reading some of the comments about Judge Cooke there appears to be a little bit of panic setting in, dont worry folks just keep pressing on we will win in the end !!! On the Judge, is he on something or a major shareholder in the banking industry, who said the british justice is fair ?

here we have an opinionated, probably well off, man who could not judge flower show, where's his impartiallality, for him to disreard the letter of law and apply his versions is totally unacceptable and must be appealed against. So come on Mr Berwick accept any offer of help and drag this case into the High Court !

 

I've my little rant, ooh I was soo mad yesterday, but today very positive, bring it on Lloyds see you in court.

 

My bundles went to Poole County Court, and [problem], last thursday, and the hearing is set for 29 June 07. Cant wait ! Please everybody prepare well and listen to the advice on here, that way you WILL NOT lose.

[Pandapa]

Hi all,

having read some of the threads above with regard to T & Cs .I would like to ask whether Abbey having indicated in their defence that I m in breach of contract and the fees reflect adminstrative costs, puts them in a position where they cannot turn around and claim the charges reflect the cost of service?

 

Pandapa

[Soniam1981]

Thanks Tide. I have got as far as starting the court process now so wouldnt sending an SAR be too late? I suppose I have a right to the information, just worried they may drag their feet now I am about to start court action against them. I am due to submit the court papers today.

Soniam

[MoneyKing]

Hi All,

 

In light of this is it not wise that we all just stick together? I think strating to panic is just what we dont need. One case, esp in a county court, is not to be concerned about, though I do agree if it is the same Judge on all the other cases in birmingham then we could be in for a roller coaster ride! But again, if Kevins case goes to appeal, then we are sure to win, and actually this is the reason why most banks do not defend!

 

What I do sugest is that we start off postin T&Cs from all the various banks, from before this procedure came into public light (i.e before the banks changed them). This will ensure that then the Banks will no longer have a leg to stand on. We prove this is breach and therefore we can apply the law on penalty charges!

 

Come on everyone, goto to court, even if it means losing. At least this way the banks will have to answer in high court at some point.

[Domant]

Wud i be right in thinking that the T&Cs req,d are the ones that were used at the time of opening the account

Steph

[Nicky29]

Hello all,

 

I'm new to this site, having logged on after the recent Lloyds TSB fiasco! With advice from Martin Lewis's site, I'm in the process of taking them to court for £480.72 in charges and interest which doesn't seem alot compared to some, yet they have still issued a defence against the whole claim. Its currently in the 28 day period where they submit this defence -I'm waiting for the Court Allocation Questionnaire and up until 2 days ago was very confident about the whole thing...

 

The bank sent me letter following my last request for the money, talking about regrettably having to charge for the so-called "extra services" they provide - this is such a joke! How can that judge accept this whitewash and rule in their favour?? Its clearly the banking industrys attempt to justify the extortionate charges they've happily inflicted on people for years!

 

I'd really appreciate any advice on how to deal with this now - if anyone has any success against Lloyds TSB following this judgement please let me know. I's also love to get a copy of their T & C contract as I don't have mine (I opened with them eons ago). I'll keep you updated on any progress here too....

 

Nicky