Vampyra -v- Various DCA's

[make them aktiv runners]

Thanks Richard, is this idea of letting them decide any better?

 

“will you please forward me a copy parts of the above assignment/agreement/contract which are relevant.”

 

I have tried to pick out the key issues in the questions that effectively states in simple terms what has occurred and who is responsible for what. To be honest I really do not see the point in seeing the Document itself, it is more important to ensure we have the right questions. I did notice some-one on here has received one, even without everyone’s name on, there is around 50 glorious pages of text. I would guess it is a typical example of these assignments and with everyone exchanging extracts it would be utter chaos on here as well as the obvious danger of mis-interpretation.

PS Thanks Rory

[andrew1]

 

“will you please forward me a copy parts of the above assignment/agreement/contract which are relevant.”

 

I did notice some-one on here has received one, even without everyone’s name on, there is around 50 glorious pages of text. I would guess it is a typical example of these assignments and with everyone exchanging extracts it would be utter chaos on here as well as the obvious danger of mis-interpretation.

 

 

 

Don't be so sure!

[Rhia]

It is a very interesting document indeed!

[andrew1]

It is a very interesting document indeed!

 

If we keep quiet about it's content Rhia, whilst the dissection goes on, then those who might have reason to be concerned might just have a sleepless night or two in anticipation of what DOES come out. I've got a long train journey tomorrow, make the journey fun, that's a certainty.

 

If anyone has any others from a bank / Cabot please feel free to PM me ( I'm getting quite a collection!)

 

This will help many people who have been subjected to the practices of Cabot.

 

Our objective is to clean up their practices. We do not object to their business, tasteless at times though it is. We object to the way that the law of the land and the rights of people are neglected and abused. All we want them to do is abide by the law, give people the respect they deserve and make the harrowing business of being in debt as pain free as possible so that people who have lost their own self respect are not crushed by intimidation which flouts the legal process and they can build their lives again without feeling ashamed of what has happened. Getting these documents allows us to see exactly what they are contracted to do - we ( meaning me and a few others with a mission to accomplish this) can empower others to ask the right questions when being contacted by them.

 

Send me the documents which are generally quite sizable documents with lots of terms and conditions ( last one was 52 pages) and we will work on them.

 

Thank you and good luck

 

Sarah

[Guest Mincemeat]

Just keep us posted with your findings. I'm intending to use some of Richard's pointers to get something thrown out when it lands sometime soon.

[elizabeth1]

It is a very interesting document indeed!

 

 

:D I AGREE

[andrew1]

Just keep us posted with your findings.

 

Of that my friend, you can be absolutely sure

[Shoestring]

Our objective is to clean up their practices. We do not object to their business, tasteless at times though it is. We object to the way that the law of the land and the rights of people are neglected and abused. All we want them to do is abide by the law, give people the respect they deserve and make the harrowing business of being in debt as pain free as possible so that people who have lost their own self respect are not crushed by intimidation which flouts the legal process and they can build their lives again without feeling ashamed of what has happened. Getting these documents allows us to see exactly what they are contracted to do - we ( meaning me and a few others with a mission to accomplish this) can empower others to ask the right questions when being contacted by them.

 

Very well said, Sarah. Cogent and to the point.

 

Shoestring

[elizabeth1]

Very well said, Sarah. Cogent and to the point.

 

Shoestring

 

Our Sarah is always "spot on"

[make them aktiv runners]

No doubt they do make interesting reading.

As the terms & conditions are often missing from CCA’s, there’s no proof of what was on or if the consumer crossed some out. My take on it all is that the law simply does not allow the duties to be assigned without the debtors agreement, the rights are transferred but the OC remains liable for the duties. Obviously it is ludicrous for the rights & duties not to be with the same party so the only way to transfer the duties to the AC is by delegation.

In summary the AC has the rights outright but performs the duties on behalf of the OC (some indemnity cover in contract to protect OC for AC’s failures).

Personally I do not think the above prevents absolute assignment as the OC technically has no interests.

[andrew1]

No doubt they do make interesting reading.

As the terms & conditions are often missing from CCA’s, there’s no proof of what was on or if the consumer crossed some out. My take on it all is that the law simply does not allow the duties to be assigned without the debtors agreement, the rights are transferred but the OC remains liable for the duties. Obviously it is ludicrous for the rights & duties not to be with the same party so the only way to transfer the duties to the AC is by delegation.

In summary the AC has the rights outright but performs the duties on behalf of the OC (some indemnity cover in contract to protect OC for AC’s failures).

Personally I do not think the above prevents absolute assignment as the OC technically has no interests.

 

 

Would you possibly mind expanding upon that theory AKtiv

 

 

 

.

[Richard Spud]

Regards to All

[Belaflat]

Just a quick question.

In a copy of my terms and conditions for a loan it states that the debt shall not be assigned without my consent unless my rights are not affected.

 

With the debt then assigned to a DCA either on behalf of the OC or by purchase, what actions by the DCA would constitute a breach of my rights and thus put the OC in breach by assigning the debt without my consent.

[Shoestring]

Richard Spud, what is the business logic that underpins the practise of a company purchasing delinquent debt and then assigning it to a sister company for collection?

 

 

Why would the sister company not purchase the debt directly?

 

 

Shoestring

[remus]

Richard Spud, you have moved me tears. Nutshell comes to mind.

Thank you.

[Richard Spud]

Regards to All

[givingitago]

Richard,

 

Although I have been lurking on this site for a while I have yet to post. I am currently researching the possibilities open to me in relation to a number of debt related issues. I just wished to say how much I appreciated your last post. Your eloquence and knowledge are incredible and you give, to me at least, a sense of both empowerment and hope. My thanks and regards to you.

 

J

[Shoestring]

In a previous posting I did opine that perhaps for tax purposes, but other than that your guess is as good as mine. It may well be that only the Officers of the corporate entities involved can provide the answer, although “make them aktiv runners” appears to have some insight into the practice.

 

Tax was one of the thoughts that crossed my mind too. Selling debt at a book loss to lower profits and reduce corporation tax. Avoiding legal responsibility for the disgraceful collection techniques of their sister company might be another.

 

I can think of other possibilities that are even more disreputable, some wholly illegal I should think. The fact is that assets can be manipulated in a wide array of ways to boost income performance.

 

How did we ever get into this sad state of affairs...

 

 

Shoestring.

[elizabeth1]

Richard - such an informative post and so well written as always!!

Thank you - I do hope you continue to contribute your findings and thoughts here - it will help many people untangle many thoughts they are dealing with etc..

 

As Andrew1 posted this is an industry that needs to be cleaned up vastly and operations do need to be so much clearer and fairer. These companies cannot continue to keep crushing people with their unfair practices.

I often wonder what these companies do expect from the consumers when the "lead with their horrid examples" of such unfair practices?

[andrew1]

...and just for a little taster as to what an agreement like this can hold this is just one of Cabots snippets in an agreement which it seems to have signed up to ( Kennys signature as bold as brass) and not to have read:

 

Section 2.11

 

(b) In so far as any Credit File contains Personal Data (as such term is defined under the Data Protection Act 1998 ) each party shall:

 

(i) comply at all times with the Data Protection Act 1998 Including, without limitation, the data protection principles set out therein in the performance of its obligations under this Agreement, shall ensure that their respective employees, agents and sub-contractors do likewise and shall obtain and maintain the necessary notifications required by the Data Protection Act I 998: and

 

(b) not, by any act or omission, cause the other party and/or any of its Affiliates to be in breach of the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

What treasures we have found on the other 51 pages ... watch out Ken...here we come :grin: :grin: CFC

 

Oh and this:

 

© The Buyer further undertakes that it will ensure that the collection of any debt due on the Accounts will be in accordance with all applicable laws, regulations, codes of practice and guidelines and current best UK practice including without Limitation:

 

(i) the provisions and requirements of the Data Protection Act 1998;

 

(ii) the Consumer Credit Act 1974;

 

(iii) in so far as it is applicable to the business of the Buyer, the Banking Code and/or all or any regulations and guidance there under

 

(iv) any advice and/or directions and/or requirements of the Banking Code Standards Board (in so far as it is applicable to the business of the Buyer), the Director General of Fair Trading, the Information Commissioner and/or any other applicable statutory and/or regulatory body; and

 

(v) all guidelines and codes of practice issued from time to time by the Credit Services Association Limited. .... and that means asking YOURSELF the question Mr er? Maynard ..

[elizabeth1]

...What treasures we have found on the other 51 pages ... watch out Ken...here we come :grin: :grin: CFC

 

Oh and this:

 

© The Buyer further undertakes that it will ensure that the collection of any debt due on the Accounts will be in accordance with all applicable laws, regulations, codes of practice and guidelines and current best UK practice including without Limitation:

 

(i) the provisions and requirements of the Data Protection Act 1998;

 

(ii) the Consumer Credit Act 1974;

 

(iii) in so far as it is applicable to the business of the Buyer, the Banking Code and/or all or any regulations and guidance there under

 

(iv) any advice and/or directions and/or requirements of the Banking Code Standards Board (in so far as it is applicable to the business of the Buyer), the Director General of Fair Trading, the Information Commissioner and/or any other applicable statutory and/or regulatory body; and

 

(v) all guidelines and codes of practice issued from time to time by the Credit Services Association Limited. .... and that means asking YOURSELF the question Mr er? Maynard ..

 

 

Mmmm!!!! "all guidelines and codes of practice issued from time to time by the Credit Services Association Ltd" isn't that sweet??:grin: :grin:

[NitrousOxide]

Hi,

Thought I would add a bit again to this thread.

I still believe that a lot of debts are not outright legal assignments due to the fact they seem to be batched printed.

Now this is interesting:

I have in my possesion 2 apparent deeds of assignment. Not so strange you may think, but they are both dated the same day, from 2 different companies (albeit same building) for the same debt.

They are printed using an Inkjet printer on the OC headed paper.

Now, if a court claim was issued (unlikely, it's statute barred) I could ask whether they have equitable assignment or legal assignment.

If it's legal which entity owns it, if it's equitable why send me a paper trail to the contrary?

[rory32]

My understanding (so could be wrong) is that if its a legal assignment the DCA owns it - as well as all the rights and obligations.

 

If it is an equitable assignment then there may be the issue of deception. Possibly worth discussing and the ramifications of this.

[make them aktiv runners]

By my reckoning there are 2 types of debtors they are dealing with, those with enforceable CCA’s and those without.

 

Those with enforceable CCA’s also have the terms & conditions that effectively allow for the rights & duties to be assigned. There seems to be a noticeable absence of these on here. I am guessing here, if there is a legal route of enforcement like in this instance then I would doubt these people suffer any where near the abuse we do (it is in the DCA’s own interest not to weaken themselves for a potential court case).

 

Those with unenforceable CCA’s (which appears to be the majority of CAGers) pose a problem for assignment in that there is only 2 options open for absolute assignment, and neither actually suits them:

 

1) Assign rights and duties. This is what we think they should be doing to comply with CCA 1974. Unfortunately for them, they cannot assign the duties without our agreement. With the absence of the terms & conditions that refer to assignment, they have an invalid contract. We win!

2) Assign rights and delegate duties (all performed by DCA although technically the duties remain responsibility of OC). Obviously as we all know, this concept conflicts with CCA 1974. I am not sure what is in the contract but this is the songsheet DCA’s appear to be singing from. If we report OC within 6 (?) months of default we win!

 

As far as data processing goes, option (1) is perfect for us, invalid contract means they have illegally been data processing. Option (2) is not as clear cut though because any document with a signature on helps their cause.

 

The only alternative is for the assignment to be Equitable albeit only by a thread. This way the OC retains responsibility for both the rights & duties and the DCA perform them on their behalf, but as the DCA have paid for the rights then the OC is holding them on trust. I did find a decent website that suggested they could sue in their own right but could not claim damages (assume that means court costs). This is perhaps the onlyway round the laws but we still win if we rport the right party!

 

Sorry Richard. Your postings are extremely informative. I think it is worth expanding into the DCA’s side of the argument to try to use their views to our advantage. Principles are great but avoiding a conflict with them may prove more rewarding for us.

PS. Richard, my views are the same as yours where there are subsidiary companies-there must be some tax advantage. I have said I do not think they were set up as 2 or more companies to confuse us but may be taking advantage by using 1 to hide behind the other (I was thinking perhaps rights with one and duties with other).

[andrew1]

PS. Richard, my views are the same as yours where there are subsidiary companies-there must be some tax advantage. I have said I do not think they were set up as 2 or more companies to confuse us but may be taking advantage by using 1 to hide behind the other (I was thinking perhaps rights with one and duties with other).

 

I've said this before, but I still say when the dca's ( Cabot ) set up this myriad of of companies they did so for a different reason altogether than what you suggest, because at that time debt collection agencies were in a grubby world and they never dreamt there would be a consumer debtor backlash like this, just like the banks so constructed their organisations around the practicalities of tax benefits and certain other benefits to them at the time.Now the situation has gone full circle on them and they will soon be vanishing back from whence they came.

 

Otherwise an informative explanation Aktiv - well done ( pity we don't all learn shorthand anymore )