DVLA SORN Eventual CCJ

[hulsevictoria]

OK

ANy advice would be welcome.

Back in 2006 I had to move out of my house into a womans refuge. I could not get access to my mail and to be honest, my car was the least of my problems.

The car was left at my old house. It had no tax but it was off the road.

I never recived a letter telling me the tax was up. I could not get access to my mail and was having a lot of problems with any correspondance that went to my old house.

 

I could not register the car to the address of the Womans Refuge since it was a PO Box address and I had no one to ask if I could use a care of address.

I left the car at the house because I had no money to put petrol in let alone maintain it.

 

In the last two years I have gotten a good job and have moved back into my old house and I still have the car (which is now taxed and legal).

In November 2006 I got my credit rating because I was looking to buy a house (instead of renting). I have saved up a fair old deposit and thought I had better check my credit rating.

 

I found a CCJ (to my horror). I had tried to make sure that even in the worst times I kept up to date with my payments of all my bills.

 

The CCJ was issued by the DVLA Bulk centre in Nottingham. I phoned the bulk centre and they said it was for £100 and for having no tax.

I set about filling in the forms to get the CCJ set asside.

 

Today I want to court to hear that there was nothing the judge could do to set it aside. Apparently I have not put a good enough case foreward. She said that she sympathised, but there was nothing she could do. The case was dealt with on the internet apparently, and becasuse it was my responsibility to tax the car it was just tough luck.

 

Is there anything I can do?

I have not paid it yet, since I have heard that paying it can make it worse

 

Can I ask for the case to be reopened so I can agree to settle out of court?

I don't know what to do. I would have paid straight away had I known about it. I diddn't get the chance and now the next six years of my life are going to be financially difficult since I am trying to get a mortgage.

 

 

HELP HELP HELP

I have spent today in tears.

[dw190]

OK

ANy advice would be welcome.

Back in 2006 I had to move out of my house into a womans refuge. I could not get access to my mail and to be honest, my car was the least of my problems.

The car was left at my old house. It had no tax but it was off the road.

I never recived a letter telling me the tax was up. I could not get access to my mail and was having a lot of problems with any correspondance that went to my old house.

 

I could not register the car to the address of the Womans Refuge since it was a PO Box address and I had no one to ask if I could use a care of address.

I left the car at the house because I had no money to put petrol in let alone maintain it.

 

In the last two years I have gotten a good job and have moved back into my old house and I still have the car (which is now taxed and legal).

In November 2006 I got my credit rating because I was looking to buy a house (instead of renting). I have saved up a fair old deposit and thought I had better check my credit rating.

 

I found a CCJ (to my horror). I had tried to make sure that even in the worst times I kept up to date with my payments of all my bills.

 

The CCJ was issued by the DVLA Bulk centre in Nottingham. I phoned the bulk centre and they said it was for £100 and for having no tax.

I set about filling in the forms to get the CCJ set asside.

 

Today I want to court to hear that there was nothing the judge could do to set it aside. Apparently I have not put a good enough case foreward. She said that she sympathised, but there was nothing she could do. The case was dealt with on the internet apparently, and becasuse it was my responsibility to tax the car it was just tough luck.

 

Is there anything I can do?

I have not paid it yet, since I have heard that paying it can make it worse

 

Can I ask for the case to be reopened so I can agree to settle out of court?

I don't know what to do. I would have paid straight away had I known about it. I diddn't get the chance and now the next six years of my life are going to be financially difficult since I am trying to get a mortgage.

 

 

HELP HELP HELP

I have spent today in tears.

 

I dont think there is much you can do with regard to the judgement of the court. The judge made the decision on the facts (Evidence).

 

However, an unpaid Judgement debt certainly looks worse than a satisfied one.

 

If you decide to pay it keep copies of all documentation you have as you can explain fully how and why you got the judgement and that you settled within a reasonable time after the Judge refused you application to Set it Aside.

[gizmo111]

Quite a few mortgage co's will disregard a paid CCJ of less than £250, when you are ready to apply for mortgage just let them know the circumstances.

However, not being in receipt of the docs should have been enough to set it aside, what grounds did yo uask for it to be set aside on?

[Isiris]

I would personally write to the DVLA and explain what had happened. Then say will they agree to the Judgement to be set aside if you pay all the outstanding amounts in full immediately.

 

If they agree, draft up a consent order and the judge will allow the set aside.

 

Hope that helps (Scales are at the bottom )

[patdavies]

I never recived a letter telling me the tax was up. I could not get access to my mail and was having a lot of problems with any correspondance that went to my old house.

 

 

I left the car at the house because I had no money to put petrol in let alone maintain it.

 

 

To be fair, there is no obligation on the DVLA to send out any sort of reminder letter. It is the RK's responsibility to tax or SORN the vehicle.

 

Even if you had left the car at the house, you could have informed the DVLA of SORN - a simple recorded delivery letter would have done; you do not need to use their form. And you don't need the V5. Alternatively, you can SORN a vehicle online.

[hulsevictoria]

Quite a few mortgage co's will disregard a paid CCJ of less than £250, when you are ready to apply for mortgage just let them know the circumstances.

However, not being in receipt of the docs should have been enough to set it aside, what grounds did yo uask for it to be set aside on?

 

Well that's just it. I have done some reasearch in the last two days, and eventhough I have laied out my circumstances to the court, I dont think I explained to them that:

a) I could not get access to the vehicle documents in order to SORN or Tax the vehicle.

b) I never recived the court summons.

 

I think I should fill out the N244 form again and state this a bit more clearly. I'm also thinking about going to a soilicitors and getting a solicitor to whitness a signed affidavid by myself, stating that I never received the summons. I would have liked the oppertunity to go to court, and had I gone to court, I could have paid immediatley.

[patdavies]

a) I could not get access to the vehicle documents in order to SORN or Tax the vehicle.

b) I never recived the court summons.

 

I think I should fill out the N244 form again and state this a bit more clearly. I'm also thinking about going to a soilicitors and getting a solicitor to whitness a signed affidavid by myself, stating that I never received the summons. I would have liked the oppertunity to go to court, and had I gone to court, I could have paid immediatley.

 

a) won't fly. You don't need the vehicle docs to SORN a vehicle and it could be quite reasonably argued that duplicates of all the documents could have been obtained to tax the vehicle. As all these would go to the V5 address, you would also have needed to get a postal redirection done for your mail.

 

b) is the killer argument given the circumstances. You did not receive the court papers and were unable to defend yourself - this should get the judgement set aside. The case will the be set for a rehearing. If you pay before the hearing there will be no CCJ.

[hulsevictoria]

Yeah, Im thinking that this is the way foreward. Whan I did eventually get hold of my mail, I went through it and there was no court summons. This is my argument. I agree it is my responsibility to tax or SORN the vehicle, but I was not aware that it had gotten to the stage of going to court. It's the responsibility of the Court to inform me that I have to go to court. I'm going to go with this.

Can anyone tell me if they have been sucsesfull with this?

And am I allowed to re-apply to have the judement set aside? I have failed once.

I'm happy to pay the £100. I'm not trying to get out of paying. I just want the opertunity to have a fair hearing and to be informed of any proceedings against myself.

[Darren]

If you've already applied for a set aside and paid the fee, you should write to the court and ask them to explain why they are not allowing you a hearing, as you never received the origional summons and have never had the chace to defend yourself. Ask them what piece of legislation allows them the right to refuse you a hearing.

[hulsevictoria]

Well I have been to court. But I was never aware of the original hearing. I'm not sure what I was doing in court. I think they were trying to determine a reason to re-open the case. But they say I failed to give an adequate reason for a re-trial.

I'm confused by what my hearing on Thursday was about?

[Rob S]

a) won't fly. You don't need the vehicle docs to SORN a vehicle and it could be quite reasonably argued that duplicates of all the documents could have been obtained to tax the vehicle. As all these would go to the V5 address, you would also have needed to get a postal redirection done for your mail.

 

b) is the killer argument given the circumstances. You did not receive the court papers and were unable to defend yourself - this should get the judgement set aside. The case will the be set for a rehearing. If you pay before the hearing there will be no CCJ.

 

Not so Pat, certainly when doing it online. You need either the V5 for its reference number or the reference number on the reminder to be able to do it online.

[hulsevictoria]

A good point but I think Pat is right to go with point b. as an argument. Yeah I needed the document's but I couldn't get hold of them. Point is I diddn't have internet access either, but the courts don't seem to acknowlage this.

I think it's worth a mention that even if declaring a SORN, or taxing a vehicle online, you still need the vehicle documentation.

 

I'm going to phone the court today to ask for a new 2224 form, and get started again.

I'm also going to see a solicitor.

[Guest xipetotec46]

I'm also going to see a solicitor.

 

Ask the courts how do you make an appeal, you have grounds for an appeal which you can do yourself without having to line the pockets of the local briefs and I don't mean the undergarment types.

[gizmo111]

THis all getting confusing, what happened and if you could or could not tax the car is irrlevant, you should b able to set aside the CCj on the grounds the paperwork was never received.

[johno1066]

A SORN penalty is for the late licensing of a vehicle or for not filing SORN. It relies upon section 31a and 7a of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act and was implemented by a change in the finance act. In order to have A SORN penalty, you need to be first found guilty of a Section 31a offence of not procuring a vehicle excise license,which is a criminal matter not a civil one. DVLA attempts to issue a penalty off of the back of an allegation which is wrong and illegal.

 

If you read the 'consultation' notes with regards to the implementation of the SORN penalty, the monies from the penalty go to the DVLA by means of netting off from the treasury, if you received documentation from the court, it would have stated that it is the Secretary of State or the Crown who was taking you to Court, not the treasury or the DVLA, if that is the case, then the privity rule of 1861 and the Bill of Rights should come into play. Either way, you have not been found guilty of a criminal offence of not having a vehicle excise license and the DVLA CANNOT state or accuse you of not having SORN'd a vehicle just because they haven't received it especially when the system of continuous registration was setup because of the abysmal administration record of the DVLA.

 

A solicitor would cost you more than the 100 quid and the DVLA parasites will fight it, they will attempt to wear you down. I'm fighting them because I'm p155sed off with being interfered with, especially when the problem is of the DVLA' making. I think in reality you have missed your chance, however if you do send off another N244 to set aside the Judgement, it is likely that you would only be able to bring mitigating circumstances before the Court. I am usually the last person who would say give in and pay for I am fully aware that these baskets are using untruths and mischief in order to penalise people, I feel however, that you would be in for much grief were you to fight this alone.

[patdavies]

Not so Pat, certainly when doing it online. You need either the V5 for its reference number or the reference number on the reminder to be able to do it online.

 

By on-line, I meant via email. You do not have to use their forms to notify SORN; and email or a letter is legally sufficient

[johno1066]

Sorry Pat, you're right on most occasions and you provide invaluable help to all but on this occasion (due to the complex and interwoven legislation) you're wrong i'm afraid. Make no mistake, this is bad law which effectively finds one guilty without the benefit of a hearing.

 

 

http://www.dvla.gov.uk/media/pdf/foi/foi11405.pdf

 

 

They are working a*se about face, trying to implement a penalty on the back of an offence that one hasn't even had the opportunity of an hearing.

 

In other words, they can only issue a supplement if they have proof that you have not relicensed your vehicle which is an offence. Without the offence being proven, the 'not having relicensed', remains an allegation, they cannot issue a penalty based on an allegation for it is unproven.

 

They also claim the money on behalf of the Secretary of State yet the money goes into treaury and DVLA coffers, not to the Crown so in my opinion the 1861 privity rule applies.

 

 

 

The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002

 

Manner in which declaration is to be made and particulars furnished

2. - (1) For the purposes of this Schedule the required declaration may be made and the required particulars furnished in such way as the Secretary of State may accept including -

 

• (a) in writing on a form specified by the Secretary of State;

• (b) orally by telephone to a person authorised by the Secretary of State; or
   
  © by electronic means in a form specified by the Secretary of State..

[dw190]

Sorry Pat, you're right on most occasions and you provide invaluable help to all but on this occasion (due to the complex and interwoven legislation) you're wrong i'm afraid. Make no mistake, this is bad law which effectively finds one guilty without the benefit of a hearing.

 

 

http://www.dvla.gov.uk/media/pdf/foi/foi11405.pdf

 

 

They are working a*se about face, trying to implement a penalty on the back of an offence that one hasn't even had the opportunity of an hearing.

 

In other words, they can only issue a supplement if they have proof that you have not relicensed your vehicle which is an offence. Without the offence being proven, the 'not having relicensed', remains an allegation, they cannot issue a penalty based on an allegation for it is unproven.

 

They also claim the money on behalf of the Secretary of State yet the money goes into treaury and DVLA coffers, not to the Crown so in my opinion the 1861 privity rule applies.

 

 

 

The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002

 

Manner in which declaration is to be made and particulars furnished

2. - (1) For the purposes of this Schedule the required declaration may be made and the required particulars furnished in such way as the Secretary of State may accept including -

 

• (a) in writing on a form specified by the Secretary of State;

• (b) orally by telephone to a person authorised by the Secretary of State; or
   
  © by electronic means in a form specified by the Secretary of State..

 

I have sent letters declaring sorn many times withou any problem.

[johno1066]

That's good Dave but that's what the legislation states, if they decide to get arsy 'bout it, then they have an opportunity to do so. If we are to give out information/advice, then where possible it should be based on fact, not on what Mr Jones has done or not done.

[hulsevictoria]

Look. I don't mind paying the fine. The only thing I am concerned about is the CCJ. I would happily pay £1000 just to get the CCJ removed, the fine is only £100. I have just been told I need to appeal to the Circuit Judge at a higher court. I don't know whether to send in another N244 form and have another go at the County Court Process or to go via this Circuit Judge route. Any Sudgestions. Please bear in mind, I don't mind paying the fine, my primary goal is to get the CCJ set aside.

[johno1066]

As already stated, if you pay it then that would satisfy the CCJ anyway. If you really wanted to have it set aside, then yes, you would have to file a PE2 & PE3 out of time statutory declaration in order to have the judgement set aside. You would need to fill out these forms with the relevant details and explain that you hadn't received the original claim.

 

DW190 has knowledge of this process and whilst it is entirely your decision, a solicitor is not generally required however you have already appealed. You may wish to ask the DVLA, whether they will accept the setting aside the judgement if you agree to pay the fine/penalty/supplement. The trouble you have, is that it is likely that if you simply file an out of time statdec, it is likely to be contested by DVLA unless some form of payment is agreed upon. Much also depends on the grounds that you appealed upon the first time around, you have been somewhat vague.

 

If you are appealing against the judges earlier decision then yes, you would appeal up the chain, if you are submitting new 'evidence' or reasons, then it is likely that you could submit using the details above. I should telephone Northampton TEC if I were you.

[hulsevictoria]

No. Not yet. I am thinking about apealing. Or going back via the N244 Route but this time including an affedavid stating that I never received the summons or any paperwork regarding the original trial.

I have been told that if I wish to appeal then I must go before the Circuit Judge. I have not yet paid the £100 as I have heard it maked a CCJ more difficult to set aside if you have paid it.

What is a PE2 and PE3 form?

Are these statutory declerations? And at which court do I get them?

[johno1066]

Like I said, much depends on what you put down on your last appeal, if you use the same arguments then you would be appealing the judges position. PE2/PE3 forms are late statutory declarattion one of which is an N244.

[hulsevictoria]

Like I said, much depends on what you put down on your last appeal, if you use the same arguments then you would be appealing the judges position. PE2/PE3 forms are late statutory declarattion one of which is an N244.

 

No I will not be using the same argument. I can't even describe the argument I put foreward last week. I said I was living at a womans Refuge and that I could not get access to my mail to tax the car. The Judge threw this out. I am Liable for Tax. I'm not going to argue with that.

 

This time I am using the argument that I never received the summons to go to court. The date of the court case was July 2006. I was living back at my home at this time, and I never did recive the documents. I would have atended straight away, had I known.

 

I think I need to try my new argument with another N224 Form. I'll get an affedavid from the solicitors stating I never recived the summons and put that with it.

[Aphrodite18]

1. Hi, I have to go to court sooon re DVLA claiming I had no road tax in Sept 06. This is untrue. I renewed my road tax for 12 months in July 06. I was away and my daughter telephoned them and wrote to them also. They demanded £65 as well to avoid a CCJ which she sent to them. I now have to go to court which means I have spent more money on air fares to attend. Can I claim and more important will I get my expenses given that I haven't done anything wrong? I spoke to a solicitor and the court and they all say very unlikely which seems very wrong to ordinary mortal me. My daughter has submitted a statement submission to the courts as I am not there and she was dealing with it on my behalf. Court date is 12th June. Any info or tips would be welcome please