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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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First direct logistics


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Hi hope someone can gleen some light on this one. My ex has had a postcard from First direct logistics. It says they are trying to deliver a parcel but are awaiting instruction from him. He has rung the number but was on hold for 40 minutes. In the end he put the phone down. Could this be a DCA using one of there tactics to try and get you to call them. Their number is 0800 072 0723. I have tried to ring it myself and i keep getting a message. you are in a queue. all our operators are busy. Seems odd to me that a delivery company would be so hard to get hold of.

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First Direct Logistics Limited - MoneySavingExpert.com Forums

 

Found some info on Money Saving Expert.

 

HTH

 

Matt

Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely - Lord Acton.

 

Advice offered by MattyH is without predjudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt. Please research any information I have offered, as I will not be held liable for any incorrect advice i've given you.

 

<--------- If my advice has helped, please tip my scales. 8)

 

For Further advice come into the Chat Room: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/chat/flashchat.php

FAQ's : http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/faqs-please-read-these/

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  • 2 months later...

My mum received a card after the delivery person would not give her a package addressed to me. I no longer live at that address, which is in Kent.

 

She was given the card and told i needed to call the freephone number. When she called, she was asked to give them my phone number, which she fortunately did not do but called me to let me know.

 

Fortunately for me I searched for the company on the website and now not not to call them or give them any details!

 

Does anyone know where this can be reported to, to ensure this is taken further?

I certianly do not want them hassling my mother on a daily basis...?

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Hi hope someone can gleen some light on this one. My ex has had a postcard from First direct logistics. It says they are trying to deliver a parcel but are awaiting instruction from him. He has rung the number but was on hold for 40 minutes. In the end he put the phone down. Could this be a DCA using one of there tactics to try and get you to call them. Their number is 0800 072 0723. I have tried to ring it myself and i keep getting a message. you are in a queue. all our operators are busy. Seems odd to me that a delivery company would be so hard to get hold of.

 

It's a con job! Basically you 'phone them, confirm all your details and they deliver you a letter from a debt collection agency!

 

Regards, Dave.

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Does anyone know where this can be reported to, to ensure this is taken further?

I certianly do not want them hassling my mother on a daily basis...?

 

TS's, OFT. Send harassment warning notice, send harassment by telephone letter..... Just a few..

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  • 3 months later...

I have found a good way to prevent this type of thing is to pay my debts as they fall due.

It seems strange to me that people get into debt and then complain when they don't pay the money back and get chased for it. It's quite funny really.

Borrow money- pay it back. Simple.

 

I don't work for a debt recovery company, or have any ulterior motive. I am just a little bemused as to why people feel they can run up debts and not have to pay them back.

Or even, borrow money and leave the address without letting the creditors know, leaving family to clean up the mess and deal with irate people on the phone and enough mail to wipe out an entire rain forest.

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I have found a good way to prevent this type of thing is to pay my debts as they fall due.

It seems strange to me that people get into debt and then complain when they don't pay the money back and get chased for it. It's quite funny really.

Borrow money- pay it back. Simple.

 

Well done you, life has obviously been kind to you in that you've always been able to follow what seems such a simple formula.

Unfortunately for many others things are not always as simple as that.

 

"The best people are born wise. Next come those who grow wise by learning: then, learned, narrow minds. Narrow minds, without learning, are the lowest of the people."

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I have found a good way to prevent this type of thing is to pay my debts as they fall due.

It seems strange to me that people get into debt and then complain when they don't pay the money back and get chased for it. It's quite funny really.

Borrow money- pay it back. Simple.

 

I don't work for a debt recovery company, or have any ulterior motive. I am just a little bemused as to why people feel they can run up debts and not have to pay them back.

Or even, borrow money and leave the address without letting the creditors know, leaving family to clean up the mess and deal with irate people on the phone and enough mail to wipe out an entire rain forest.

Things must be slack with the DCAS as they seem to be spending a lot of time on here pontificating and spouting the usual DCA propganda. Good for you Paid Up. Lets hope you never experience Unemployment. Ill Health or a broken marriage.

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PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLL

HAVE YOU BEEN TREATED UNFAIRLY BY CREDITORS OR DCA's?

 

BEWARE OF CLAIMS MANAGEMENT COMPANIES OFFERING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS.

 

 

Please note opinions given by rory32 are offered informally as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice, you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

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It's easy to attack a person isn't it?

Why attack me as a person?

 

I am not a troll, nor do I work for a debt collection agency.

 

I am a single parent (broken marriage through DEBT!), working, but also claiming benefits, so all of your assumptions that I am 'well off' couldn't be further from the truth.

 

Rather than attack a person for stating a fact, why not just think?

 

The truth hurts. All I did was state the truth- rather than think about the statement you attacked the person, which really is kind of low.

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I have never had a £20k debt, so I doubt anyone would be popping along to ask me to pay one.

 

So, what you're saying is, that all these people getting cards from First Direct have never borrowed money, which they haven't paid back, and then failed to tell their creditor where they live?

 

If that's so, then obviously First Direct have no right to ask for money.

 

On the other hand, if a card comes through because a person *has* borrowed money and *has* failed to pay it back, then exactly what do you suggest the creditor does?

Why would anyone think they can borrow money and not have to pay it back, and then be appalled that they are being asked for it?

If you leant someone money, would you not want it back?

 

I am not a debt collector- I am just a person who has been 'stung' by someone else who felt they had the right to borrow money and not pay it back.

 

How does this affect all of your families? Do they enjoy the stress associated with the 'situation' you found yourselves in through no fault of your own?

 

What is it? They sent you a credit card, so it's their fault? They offered you a loan, so it's their fault?

I get offered them to. I just say 'no'- rip it up & throw it away.

Does that mean that I live a 'basic' life with a 'basic' home? Yes.

It also means I don't have debt collection agencies chasing me for money. I suppose we all have choices to make- but they are our choices. And as much as I cannot complain about my basic standard of living because that it is my choice- a person who has chosen to get into debt (you had to sign a loan agreement right?) should not then moan about the consequences of their actions.

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You are clearly operating under a misunderstanding here.

 

The original poster does not owe the money. It is something that has come for her ex. She does not want to contact them because she does not want these people turning up at her door if they are a DCA.

 

I know the situation with this particular poster because they are related to me.

 

DCA's harassing other people in order to sort out a debt owed by someone else is not on. The poster and the ex are still technically married, the poster knows northing of this debt as such and did not benefit from it, so she wants to ensure she is not going to be landed with it or the problems that follow.

 

This is not debt evasion or avoidance - ITS NOT THEIR DEBT

 

COMPRENDEZ?

 

:mad:

 

Oh, amd one other thing - DCA's expect us to operate within the law - THEY MUST DO SO ALSO.

 

The tactic being described is unlawful!

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The point is clearly wasted on the pedantic

 

A person, no matter who they are, no matter what their status, whether they are ignorant of a debt or alleged debt (as the case may be) or not has the lawful right to establish that the person (or persons) attempting to collect the debt have the legal right to do so.

 

If this wasn't the case, then anyone could simply contact a debtor (obviously not you because you wouldn't be soooooo stupid to get into debt) and demand payment of the debt. and reading from these pages, this situation is alarmingly common.

 

Whether the debt exists or not is not the case, it's whether the person (or persons) are legally entitled to collect it, if they aren't, then they should return it from whence it came and let the legal owners act in the correct manner

 

The mechanisms to establish the legal ownership of debts are already in place BY LAW, so why would it be deemed as incorrect not to use them

 

Denying people their legal rights is against the law. so why, as you are condoning, should DCA's be allowed to break the law?

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what about an elderly person recently took her own life because she was harass for money by debt collectors that she did not owe to them!!! She was a pensioner and a granny what about her children and grandchildren who have lost a very dear parent and grandparent because mistakes were made by DCA's and they would not give up chasing her.:evil:

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I did not address my response to any individual- including the original poster. Nor did *I* direct any personal attacks against any individual poster.

If anyone has read it that way, that's their problem to own.

 

I have never commented on the 'legal right' of any debt collection agency.

 

It is, however, against the law to take out credit and not pay it back. It's called fraud. Funny how we have to look at everyone *other* than the debtors here isn't it?

Only confirms what I thought already.

 

 

As for the poster who has had a crad through for her estranged husband- I am in a similar situation. So why on earth would I direct any negative comments to them?

 

I had a card through from First Direct Logistics regarding my ex. I found this site because the card looked suspect- I googled it, and this site came up.

 

Yea, it's pretty awful to look at the possibility of losing your home because you married someone was was stupid enough to get into debt *that they could not afford to pay back*. (I get into debt too. I pay it back. That's the difference)

It is unfortunate that some irresponsible people rack up debt and leave their families in the 'poop'.

All I can say is that HFO were very nice to me especially when I told them where my ex was.

 

As for responsibility for the debt... did you sign anything? If not then you're pretty safe. My ex's debt is all on credit cards, in his name alone, from which I had no benefit. So, no, legally they cannot chase me. Doesn't stop them coming after my ex's half of the equity in the family home though. What do they do, leave me with two walls and half a roof?

 

The law, when it comes to debt, and in particular *avoidance* of paying debt, sucks big time.

 

As for DCA's chasing people who do *NOT* owe money- well that is obviously wrong, and at no point have I ever condoned that. I feel I have nade it quite clear that my opinion is that DCA's have a job to do to chase debtors that are refusing to pay back money they owe. Simple.

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I did not address my response to any individual- including the original poster. Nor did *I* direct any personal attacks against any individual poster.

If anyone has read it that way, that's their problem to own.

 

I have never commented on the 'legal right' of any debt collection agency.

 

It is, however, against the law to take out credit and not pay it back. It's called fraud. Sorry but what part of The Fraud Act do you get that from. Its Fraud only if you take out a loan with the intention of not paying it back.Funny how we have to look at everyone *other* than the debtors here isn't it? Although you SAY you do not work for a DCA your mantra seems so similar its hard not to draw the obvious conclusion.

Only confirms what I thought already.

 

 

As for the poster who has had a crad through for her estranged husband- I am in a similar situation. So why on earth would I direct any negative comments to them? So you say

 

I had a card through from First Direct Logistics regarding my ex. I found this site because the card looked suspect- I googled it, and this site came up.

 

Yea, it's pretty awful to look at the possibility of losing your home because you married someone was was stupid enough to get into debt *that they could not afford to pay back*. No-one sets out to get into debt, most people on here except for you obviously have got into debt for a number of reasons no of which could be classed as 'stupid'. I did not ask for my company to fold, I did not ask to have a serious medical condition nor a marraige breakup as many on here have suffered.(I get into debt too. I pay it back. That's the difference)Would that we were all so lucky as you

It is unfortunate that some irresponsible people rack up debt and leave their families in the 'poop'.

All I can say is that HFO were very nice to me especially when I told them where my ex was.Well that just goes to show their is an exception to every rule. Read the numereous threads on here to see the real 'caring' and 'not so nice' side of HFO

 

As for responsibility for the debt... did you sign anything? If not then you're pretty safe. My ex's debt is all on credit cards, in his name alone, from which I had no benefit. So, no, legally they cannot chase me. Doesn't stop them coming after my ex's half of the equity in the family home though. What do they do, leave me with two walls and half a roof?

 

The law, when it comes to debt, and in particular *avoidance* of paying debt, sucks big time. Thanks for the confirmation

 

As for DCA's chasing people who do *NOT* owe money- well that is obviously wrong, and at no point have I ever condoned that. I feel I have nade it quite clear that my opinion is that DCA's have a job to do to chase debtors that are refusing to pay back money they owe. Simple.

It happens and you KNOW it happens. There is nothing wrong with people excercising their LEGAL rights under the CCA. Similarly there is nothing arong with a DCA excercisng their Legal rights assuming of course they have Legal rights such as an executed agreement and deed of assignment.

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Nobody's disputing the right for a creditor to resolve outstanding debts, it's the HOW, and the WHO and the WHY

 

ie WHO they employ to collect their debts and HOW they do their business, HOW they train their staff to be obnoxious and deliberately avoid anything "off-script", HOW and WHY they hound people to the point of suicide as mentioned earlier in this thread

 

HOW the people they use flout the laws that have been implemented to protect the public from the unscrupulous people who thrive in this area. HOW and WHY they deceive and lie and prey on those who aren't aware of their legal rights, how they attempt intimidation and worse.

 

I think You'll also find that there are repeated denouncements throughout this forum regarding the practice of deliberate debt evasion.

 

Why people get into debt? there are thousands of reasons, how they cope with the debt, thats down to individual circumstances,

 

What if the person then falls further, ie loses their job, becomes unwell and simply hasnt the available monies to pay the debt, what then?

when you can pay, you're a valued customer, when you get problems, you're ****, is that how it goes?

 

I'm glad I don't live in your little world

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Right, now then. Paid up. As it happens all my own personal debts are paid up. I have worked bloody hard to get to this point. I appreciate your views and opinions. I came on here for advice about a debt collection agency using tactics that are under hand. And as it happens i am also helping my ex get himself sorted. Neither of us wanted to be in this situation. But we do take some of the blame for it happening. If you want to view your opinions then thats fine. But would you mind starting your own thread so everyone can join in instead of hijacking mine. Thank you

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And before you jump in with both feet paid up i am more than willing to pay what i owe. As i am doing. But i will pay the original creditor the amount i owe. Not a complete stranger that can pull a figure out of nowhere that bares no resemblance to my statements. The same goes for ex.

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Oh sod it, i actually know someone who is a partner in a very well known DCA. I am not going to mention names. But let me tell you when he told my ex how his company operates it scared the living crap out of me. He told him how much he pays for the debts and also about the way hegoes about his business. It was truly frightening. Neither i or my ex borrowed money from any DCA. I got the money from the bank and the bank i will pay. No one else.

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If people have the *intention* of paying their debts back why do they fail to provide a forwarding address to the creditor and then think it's clever to change their telephone numbers?

 

Again, you insist on personal attacks and insist I work for a DCA, which I have said I do not.

So, now you resort to saying I am lying because you can't accept the truth?

 

My company folded in June 2006. My marriage had already broken down and I was in the middle of a divorce. Yea, I am soooo *lucky*. I am not posting that for sympathy, because I really do not want it. I just don't think that using bad personal circumstances as justification for debt is not always the case. (obviously, I do not know your situation, so that is not directed at you)

 

As for DCA's. If the bank had been paid back in the first place, they would not have sold the debt on would they?

 

Smashedbobo, I have not directed any comments at you personally. I am really genuinely pleased for you that you have managed to get through what must have been a horrendous time- and that shows great strength.

I am also really disgusted that a DCA has now started chasing you for money which you do not owe.

Again, my comments were not directed at people in that situation, but rather generally to state that I understand why DCA's become involved when people are deliberately avoiding their debts.

 

As far as I am aware this is a public forum, and when a thread is started, it is 'public'. It's an unfortunate fact of posting on a forum that you have to take the good with the bad. If you see mine as 'bad', then you are quite entitled to ignore me. I won't be offended in the least.

 

I do not mean any offence to you, or any individual here. I haven't attacked anyone here. I have merely stated my opinion based on my own experiences of being severely affected by debt.

 

I can see some here think I live in a happy 'little world', but those people are making assumptions which couldn't be further from the truth.

I have been dealing with this for 15 years now- personally, and NOT because I am on the 'other side' which is being continually stated by some on here, even though I have clearly stated that I am not working for a DCA.

 

Debt destroys lives. I am sorry if I have caused personal offence because that was not my intention. I have not personally attacked any individual on here despite being attacked myself.

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