GOT A COURT DATE? Important, please read......

[Pen]

Hi Ataction, your right, it does sound promising I would be checking my bank account if i was you just in case they have popped anything in it. the fact that they are prepared to negotiate indicates that they are going to pay up. Did SC&M send in their court bundle and are you claiming the 8% interest or CL. my case went before the judge on Friday due to non-compliance of directions, ie sc&m did'nt submit their bundle, I have been told to ring the court on Tuesday to see what he has decided but since my case is being heard on the Wednesday anyway he may just let it roll.

 

Good luck i will keep my fingers crossed for you.

[Johnsworld]

FOR PARTICULAR ATTENTION OF SVENG

 

Witness Statement should be included in court bundle, just addto list. I'd put it as first item. The court were very helpful. I'd put my Witness Statement in a clear sleeve at the front of my bundle, but separate. The court said it would be fine like that and all I needed to do was to send a copy to the bank and make sure I kept one for myself. Hope that clears up any doubts.

 

I think it might be important to include a copy of the SAR letter as it specifically asks the bank to detail any manual interventions. Automated process - cheap. Manual interventions - expensive. No manual interventions - how come you charged me £30? I only thought of it after I put in my bundle. I know the bank said in reply that the fact that they did not identify any manual intereventions didn't mean there weren't any - but I can't find the letter. If any Barclays customers read this and have a response letter saying something similar I'd appreciate a copy of the wording.

 

Regards,

John.

[ataction]

Thanks Pen, yes I am claiming 8%, and no they have not submitted their court bundle, nor have they paid. Do you think they will make the trek to North Devon on Tuesday? I am geared up for the court appearance, in fact quite looking forward to it.

[donnalou]

lloyds deleting archive t&cs???? im getting told they hav either been removed or were not archived

[Pen]

Hi ataction. no I don't think somehow that they will attend, i bet your moneys in your bank on monday, it think it's only the one's who are claiming CI that they are defending, but if they do turn up don't worry as I am sure you will be fine. did you post the non-complience of directions letter, i can't remember. make sure you post as soon as you hear anything as we are all behind you, good luck

pen

[manxlass]

Hi everyone, got my court date now, just typing up witness statement, and going through my past statements, I have just realised that on the bank statements, they themselves, lloyds tsb actually list their 'service' fees as charges on the payment type, I am now actually highlighting the words and going to put them in my bundle, is this a good idea

[sveng]

Johnsworld - thanks for the advice That's great your court has been so helpful - Worthing county court have told me they can offer me no advice whatsoever!

 

Have just read today about these SAR letters. I never sent one of these to the bank as I found most of the statements for the entire time I've had the account and any missing ones I got printed (for free) at my local branch. Is this a problem now I have a hearing & document submission looming??

[Johnsworld]

SVENG,

 

I guess the crux of our argument is that the charges represent a penalty because they don't reflect the true cost to the bank of what is pretty much an automated process. If it got to court and the bank tried to claim they incurred these costs because they had to manually intervene would you be able to dispute that?

 

If you have time to send the SAR it will be proof that you requested details of such interventions (which the bank can't or won't tell you about). As you already have the statements you require I guess you could just write to the bank's HQ asking for specific instances of manual interventions. I just feel that the bank won't tell you anything unless you force them. I have reconsidered my opinion about the SAR going in the bundle. It will only be relevant if the bank introduces manual interevention as justification for their charges so I'd just keep it in case.

 

SAR is as follows or you could just pinch the bit about manaul intererventions. Don't forget the £10 if you do the SAR. The chances rae you will get the £10 returned with the info - don't ask me why!

 

Data Protection Act 1998

Subject Access Request

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER:

 

Please supply me with a complete list of transactions and charges relating to my banking history with your organisation. Alternatively, a complete set of statements for that period will be acceptable.

 

Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my banking business with you.

 

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply. Furthermore, if I discover that you have levied disproportionate penalties against me, then I shall be reclaiming them, and also reclaiming the enclosed £10 Data Protection Act subject access request fee.

 

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

I would be happy to collect the Data from my local branch.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Regards,

John.

[sianie012]

I have received a letter from my local court, Southend County court, saying:

 

'It is ordered that the claim stayed until 27th June 2007. To be referred to District Judge Dudley in paperwork on 27 June 2007'.

 

Can anyone please tell me what this means???

[GaryH]

It means your claim is stayed (suspended) until June 27th.

 

You could try removing the stay, or, getting them to settle within the stay period. See the "AQ's - Stays......etc" thread next to this one.

[manxlass]

Hello everyone, I am a little worried, I did not apply for an SAR as I had all my statements relating to the period that I am claiming for, should I just include copies of the relevant pages of statements and type up a charges schedule to include in the bundle, will this be acceptable. Does anyone know, and could anyone let me know how to get a copy of the Martin Orton letter. Thanks again.

[Johnsworld]

Manxlass, don't go chasing your tail!

 

If you have all your statements just take out the ones with charges on and list them on the spreadsheet at the following page:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/182-6-interest-calculation-spreadsheets.html

 

You should find the link to Martin Orton's letter here:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/82148-got-court-date-important.html

 

The SAR includes the follwing paragraph:

 

"Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my banking business with you."

It may or may not be important depending on the how the bank tries to justify its charges. I guess you could just write and ask them the question and you won't have to pay ten punds, but you're unlikely to get a straight answer whichever way you do it.

Regards,

John (Manxlover)

[tumbler]

Hi people - I have to admit I'm a bit slow when it comes to money matters - I've know realised the errors of my ways. I'm a doctor by profession and with the current government shafting us doctors and the whole NHS my attention has been focussed on that!

My girlfriend was able to painlessly get Halifax to refund her charges after a few simple steps. For me Lloyds are getting intimidating (well I think so). I followed the same steps - I escalated after they refused to acknowledge my claim and hoped they would back down - they haven't.

Now I find myself heading towards court - I have received a Notice of Transfer of Proceedings with little else - are there some steps I should be following now?

Please guide - thanks

[dazzabambra]

[problem] ar lloyds solicitors im now claiming for two friends and my brother lol .im quite enjoying it all oh and ive got a court date for my third claim with lloyds.and just received a letter from [problem] re my brothers claim with lloyds saying they want to negoiate can i please provide account nos spreadsheets ect . they allready have this IS THIS JUST ANOTHER STALLING TACTIC BY LLOYDS ???

[Memnoch]

***In light of recent events, it is now more important than ever that you prepare thoroughly for court and include everything you need in your bundles.***

 

It appears that some claimants are now getting a bit sloppy with regards to bundles and preparing for court. We've seen quite a few threads recently where the claimant hasn't bothered submitting anything becouse its a "waste of time".

 

Ultimately, that may well be true in most cases, but to not comply with a court order is a very dangerous game and you run the real risk of having your claim struck out. There have been 2 claims in the last week or so where this has been the case.

 

As we all know, its highly unlikely that your claim will get as far as court, but even so, you should still prepare exactly as you would if you knew it was going to - I.e. get a good, solid bundle in ON TIME, and make sure that you know your arguements. Particularly in relation to Lloyds service charge defence. Read this thread -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/81799-issues-raised-llloyds-bank.html

 

What to include in your bundle

 

Clearly this will depend to a certain extent upon which specific directions have been ordered, but, IN ADDITION to everything else which you would normally submit, you should include;

 

1) Your account T&C's. Preferably those from when the account was opened. If you haven't got them, attempt to get them from your branch or the website. This site contains Lloyds T&C's back to 1999 -

Internet Archive Wayback Machine

As well as account T&C's, you should also have a look for those applicable to cards, standing order and direct debit forms.

 

2) The full OFT report. No need to print out the whole thing, but you do need the front cover, section 1 "overview" and most importantly, section 4.21 "Disguised penalties". You should put this in INSTEAD of the OFT report summary from the Basic Bundle in the templates library.

 

3) The McNamara interview. The transcript is fine.

 

4) Any correspondance or documents published by Lloyds which refers to their charges as - "Penalties", "defaults", "imposed when you breach your agreement", etc. Check your old T&C's if you have them and include anything which suggests that the charges are imposed as a result of a breach of your account agreement.

 

I have a letter in which Martin Orton states that Lloyds' charges exist - "in order that we can recoup our costs". This was in response to a direct request to justify their charges, and no mention was made in the letter of them being any sort of "service charge". Print it off from here to include in your bundles -

 

Orton letter

 

Simularly, if anyone else finds anything useful such as that, or in their old T&C's, etc, please let me have a copy so I can distribute it for others. Obviously you should block out personal details, and also I am happy to pay any postage costs if necessary.

 

5) A detailed Witness Statement, which specifically includes arguements which tackle the service charge arguement and "cloaking". See the post below.

 

When you've submitted your bundle

 

In most cases they will pay around now, but if not, and if they don't submit documents, then on the day of the deadline for submissions (which will be stated on the directions order), you should inform the court of their non-compliance immediately.

 

Send the letter here -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/58011-directions-non-compliance-letters.html

 

Also, if a court date is imminent you should have a good read of the guidance notes.

 

Court guidance notes

 

Gary, in addition to number 2) the Full OFT Report (Credit Card Charges)I recommend the following also be added:

 

2.a. Unfair Contract Terms guidance

 

Link here =

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/unfair_contract_terms/oft311cons.pdf

 

Firstly print pages 1 - 15 which outlines the report then section 5.8 which I found extremely useful.

 

Also Pages 1-4 and page 118 - 123 of this document which is just a large annexe to the above report ---> http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/unfair_contract_terms/oft311cons-annexes.pdf

 

Gary, if there is any way you can read through this and if you deem necessary edit your thread on the main page (the one I have quoted) and add the above info to it.

[GaryH]

Yes - I've seen it. Interesting section on disguised penalties.

 

There are a number of extra bits and pieces that'll be going up over the next week or so. Hopefully we'll have a decent little T&C library as well before to long.

 

Thanks Memnoch.

[Memnoch]

No probs, I have added it to my court bundle anyhow cause I think I can use it to refer back to.

 

I am currently trying to build up a load of arguments to counter the 'Charge for a service' defence.

 

I still think that my, and every other Lloyds TSB customer with a Select, or higher account, strongest argument against 'Charge for Service' is the monthly admin fee I pay for the running of my account. I have just not been able to word this particular argument yet.

 

Another argument I have been looking at is the disguised penalties and possibly caselaw for Lord Elphinstone v. Monkland Iron and Coal Co (1886) "....a penalty is a charge where compensation is paid for an event causing damage.....". The compensation being the £30 charge etc and the damage being the extra service Lloyds have had to supply.

[manxlass]

Thanks John, I'm getting very nervous about the whole issue, court date is 20 June in Sheffield so have to arrange travel from the island but looking forward to seeing my relly's. Just completing my bundle. Your comments were very friendly and calmed me down, (made my day!!)

[swanseabloke]

i have had a court date but not been asked to give an evidence bundle the letter just says i can appear in court or make written representation is this normal will i be asked to give an evidence bundle as well

[Mistermind]

Thanks John, I'm getting very nervous about the whole issue, court date is 20 June in Sheffield

 

You're nervous?

 

There is a post in MoneySavingExpert, a claimant is shortly to face up to Judge Cooke in Birmingham. The judge wrote to ask for more information in the bundle, so he looks unlikely to dismiss this case even if the bank barrister went AWOL again.

 

I have encouraged user Alan... to post on CAG.

 

--------------------------------------------------

 

What is the prevailing charge on the island?

Come to that, can any Jersey and Guerney members advise the prevailing charge there?

 

The AIB in Dublin charges £3, but their branch in the UK charges £20. It would be 95% probable the same IT system is used, so no cost-based justification for the 7-fold difference.

 

For me, a prime facie case of price collusion between a cartel of UK banks.

[Mistermind]

(dropped duplicate of posting on T&C thread)

[potterlogo]

I have a court date and have followed all your advise, we have just get a letter from the judge saying that if SC&M do not meet with the order the case will be struck out without further notice. We may apply to have it set aside, varied or stayed within 7 days. What does all this mean please.

From Potterlogo

[photoman]

I have a court date and have followed all your advise, we have just get a letter from the judge saying that if SC&M do not meet with the order the case will be struck out without further notice. We may apply to have it set aside, varied or stayed within 7 days. What does all this mean please.

From Potterlogo

 

Potterlogo

 

I may not be able to answer this question myself, and someone like Gary may.

In order to help him and others provide you with advice on this, could you post an outline (remove any of your personally identifiable info) of what order the judge has asked SCM to comply with ?

Also, was it in response to draft directions that you suggested yourself in an AQ, or was it an order made of the courts own motion?

 

Regards

[Kjball]

Does anyone have a copy of letter to sc&m/courts for submitting their bundle

[potterlogo]

Hi Photoman

thanks for getting back to me, our case number is to be held at Guildford county court, before Judge Reid QC. we have a date 14th June and of course have heard nothing from SC&M. we wrote to the Judge asking to make an order pursuant to rule 3.4(2)© of the civil procudure rule, or other such order as the court deems just.

We then recieved the letter yesterday saying about what i posted yesterday.