johnsworld v Barclays Bank

[Johnsworld]

1/9/06 - Sent Subject Access Request signed by daughter as advised, enclosing cheque for £10.

 

9/09/06 - received response from Manager, Barclays Data Protection saying that the bank is not under any obligation to present infoprmation according to any particular format and therfore the request to assemble a schedule of charges is turned aside. They then say the data can be obtained from copy statements which will be supplied in the next few weeks without charge and they have returned the cheque. They advise that some statement informationprior to and possibly during 1999 to 2000 is manually stored in the form of microfiche and does not fall within the data subject access provisions of the Data Protection Act. As regards "manual intervention" they say the DPA does not oblige the bank to comment about internal policies and procedures and that the bank does not hold the information in a form that would be covered by the DPA. They continue that while aggregated information is retained for statistical purposes, this would not constitute personal data under the DPA and would not be covered by an s7 DPA Subject Access Request. Finally, to cover themselves I suspect, they say "for the avoidance of doubt, the fact that we do not generally record information in a way that is caught by the provisions of the DPA, is in no way an admission that there was no such manual intervention".

 

I started this to help my daughter get back in excess of £800 the bank imposed as penalty charges after encouraging her take out student overdrafts. I'm happy that they want to provide the statement information free of charge but my daughter has already got five year's statements which she requested prior to starting this action and for which she paid £5.

 

I am suspicious of the manner of their response and their motives. Perhaps they hope that by making things difficult they will discourage us. My concern is that there actions may be designed to sabotage our prospects in the event of future court action.

 

I really would like to know if this is a common response and would welcome your comments, your advice or your encouragement.

 

Please don't think I intend to quit. It's just that I'm not sure if there is something I need to do and I don't want to let them of the hook through a lack of knowledge or a mistake.

 

Thanks,

John.

[cleungs1]

if you read some of the thread in the Banking section you may find similars reply

[Johnsworld]

Sorry, but I'm new to this and posted this thread in the wrong place. I've copied it across to here because it might be relevant to other potential Barclays litigants and also because their response wasn't what I expected.

 

1/9/06 - Sent Subject Access Request signed by daughter as advised, enclosing cheque for £10.

 

9/09/06 - received response from Manager, Barclays Data Protection saying that the bank is not under any obligation to present infoprmation according to any particular format and therfore the request to assemble a schedule of charges is turned aside. They then say the data can be obtained from copy statements which will be supplied in the next few weeks without charge and they have returned the cheque. They advise that some statement informationprior to and possibly during 1999 to 2000 is manually stored in the form of microfiche and does not fall within the data subject access provisions of the Data Protection Act. As regards "manual intervention" they say the Data Protection Act does not oblige the bank to comment about internal policies and procedures and that the bank does not hold the information in a form that would be covered by the Data Protection Act. They continue that while aggregated information is retained for statistical purposes, this would not constitute personal data under the DPA and would not be covered by an s7 DPA Subject Access Request. Finally, to cover themselves I suspect, they say "for the avoidance of doubt, the fact that we do not generally record information in a way that is caught by the provisions of the DPA, is in no way an admission that there was no such manual intervention".

 

I started this to help my daughter get back in excess of £800 the bank imposed as penalty charges after encouraging her take out student overdrafts. I'm happy that they want to provide the statement information free of charge but my daughter has already got five year's statements which she requested prior to starting this action and for which she paid £5.

 

I am suspicious of the manner of their response and their motives. Perhaps they hope that by making things difficult they will discourage us. My concern is that there actions may be designed to sabotage our prospects in the event of future court action.

 

I really would like to know if this is a common response and would welcome your comments, your advice or your encouragement.

 

Please don't think I intend to quit. It's just that I'm not sure if there is something I need to do and I don't want to let them of the hook through a lack of knowledge or a mistake.

 

Thanks,

John.

[orfoster]

Hi John,

 

That letter is definatly a fob off letter!

 

I know for a fact that micro thing is an old argument that they DO have to supply old statements as you ARE entitled to it as it is in relation to your account but this is a stalling tactic and they are playing this card well.

 

That is just to put you off. I would hope that they send you the statements soon and you will claim back what is rightfully yours or your daughters. They owe you it!

 

They are digging a nice hole for themselves, have a fish around on this site for help topics in Legalities and things like that for Data Protection help to see what they must provide you with. How bad would it look by them not cooperating with you when it goes to court.

 

Good Luck.

[victimnomore]

Yep!

 

That seems to be the standard letter Barclays are using.

[Cerihatton]

Hi Bud

Yeah standard letter from the vampire bat i am getting to know the format being used by the banks, and as this is my first morning on the site have already discovered you and I are not alone. Im not stopping with Barclays either, I am tempted to have a chew at Cap 1 once i got this win under my belt. Go for the jugular, the bats been doing it to me for years. Ceri

[Johnsworld]

Thank you both for your replies. I hoped that I would be reassured and you have done that. I was worried that Barclays would appear to have been cooperative by giving the statements free of charge so it's good they are being obstructive regarding the microfiche. I was really irritated by the patronising, superior tone of the letter I received from their Data Protection Manager . Initially it was me against an organisation but now it's become personal and I'm angry! Maybe not the guy's fault (I bet he loves all this!) but it sure helps me to focus. It's a war of attrition and it's great that there are so many of you (us) fighting and wearing them down.

Thanks once again,

John.

[Johnsworld]

Hi and thanks for the reply. NIce to know Barclays haven't singled me out. Funny you mentioned Cap1 because I was thinking about them myself.

 

They haven't had much out of me but they have p'd me off. I only recall missing one payment and recently messed up my standing order and incurred charges on my subsequent statements. On each occasion I rang them and asked ever so nicely if they understood it was a mistake, I won't ever do it again and please please can I have my £20 back. On each occasion I was made to feel very naughty but they would "as a gesture" let me have half. I then received a letter from a manager telling me how it was my responsibility , terms and conditions etc etc and how kind they have been. It's probably only about £40 max but I'm tempted to rattle their cage just because they have an attitude. Trouble is I can live without Barclays but I can't afford to pay off my Cap1 card if they get awkward.

 

Thanks again. Keep fighting!

 

I am so empowered by this site. Perhaps CAG should become a political party!!

 

Regards,

John.

[victimnomore]

I should think we've all been through pretty much the same emotions;

First, the innocence - "I'm going to keep my account in credit" and "Aren't these bank people nice?"

Next, the guilt - "Oh dear I've gone 'over', it's my fault, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry."

Then, drifting into a vicious circle of bullying by the bank and more guilt, and yet more bullying.

Followed by frustration - as you realise that their charges are creating overdrafts and vice versa - and impotence - as pleadings to the bank are met with alternating bullying and patronizing. (What makes this particularly despicable is that the banks are putting all this emotional and financial stress on those who are least able to cope with it - those who are already most financially vulnerable.)

Then the light at the end of the tunnel! The message of this site, and others, that it is the banks who are in the wrong - not only morally and ethically (which we knew) but also LEGALLY! Oh the relief!

And that's where confidence takes over from guilt!!

Now, let's get 'em ..

[Johnsworld]

Just got to stay angry! It makes it so much easier.

Thanks for the upbeat messages.

Regards,

John.

[mollyhannah]

Hi just want to say i had a good experience with capital one. They only owed me £90.00 but hey its my £90.00. I sent them prelim letter with list of charges which included a £10.00 refund. They wrote back saying that i accepted the charges when i signed my agreement and that they were entitled to charge them, but as a gesture of good will would refund me £40.00. I checked my account and they had put £40.00 back.

I sent them a thankyou letter and told them that the balance to pay was now only £50.00.

I then sent the LBA with an amended list of charges. I got a letter back saying it may take some weeks to look into but they would get back to me. The next day i got another letter saying they had already refunded me £40.00 as a goodwill gesture but " in light of comments made in your letter " They were prepared to refund me the rest.

I checked my balance and there it was.

I never had to chase anything up and i didnt even file in court.

 

Good luck

[Cerihatton]

Im confused , when we speak of Capital 1 are we talking about the credit card side of the banking or the Bank? as I have been also charged high and unfair charges by the credit card company, which I will deal with after the win with Barclays.

[kooglesarmy]

I too got this reply from Barclays last thursday.

They way I understood it, they do not have a breakdown of all the charges on one sheet, but will send they statements in due course for me to work out.

Then its on to stage 2 ! Or am I being naive ?

 

Has anyone's statements turned up yet, and how long did they take to arrive ?

Cheers,

Chris

[Johnsworld]

Just to give you some kind of timescale, I wrote to Barclays requesting statements on 1/09/2006 and received a reply within days returning my cheque, offering my statements free of charge but claiming microfiche files are excempt from the act. Received statements on 29/09/2006 going back to year 2000.

[CrispDust]

Well good so far John.

You don't say if its a credit card or bank account?

Now tot up the charges, work out any overdraft or credit card interest caused by those charges. Then apply a contractual rate of interest (whatever the overdraft rate or APR of credit card is) on each of those charges and interest from the time they appeared to the current date. All adding up nicely isn't it

Your letter received is usually high brow fob off.

 

Submit your Prelim request for refund.

Then your LBA

Then your MCOL

Barclays will defend.

Then wait....

If it gets to court and they try to claim the charges were justified with manual intervention costs, then they will have some difficulty proving that since they have no records!

Good look. Keep to YOUR timetable and make sure you read up as much as possible.

[Johnsworld]

Thanks for the advice. It's a current account (two actually) belonging to my daughter. Barclays let her have loads of money when she was a student and then stung her with loads of charges when she left Uni. A common story I expect.

Cheers,

John.

[Johnsworld]

I received my statements and returned cheque with little trouble but I also got the waffle about not being able to show manaul interventions but doesn't mean there weren't any. I have calculated total charges and intended to submit preliminary request for return of charges. Having read other threads I wondered do I need to press them more forcefully about instances of manual intervention before I send the preliminary letter? Also not sure where to send the letter. Would Churchill Place be OK?

Thanks,

John.

 

 

[sandbag]

Hello John- i have sent all my correspondence to the Churchill Place address.

Good Luck

Regards Sandbag.

[victimnomore]

I wouldn't worry about chasing them up about the manual interventions. It doesn't seem to have been an issue for anyone yet - and you're unlikely to get a straight answer anyway.

 

You can send your prelim letter to head office or the Leicester address, which seems to be a centralised mail handling department, or even to your local branch. All seem to work O.K. If you use first class post you can legally assume delivery within two days.

 

Personally, I prefer the Churchill Place address since it's the registered office, and to send by recorded delivery so I know when they've got it, but that's just my preference.

[Johnsworld]

Hi to all of you and thanks for the support and advice so far.

 

Just to update everybody and to allow comparison with other cases we sent the preliminary request on 10 October 2006, giving them 14 days to respond. The charges in question totalled £1225. Received a very prompt reply acknowledging the letter, expressing disappointment, saying they would look into it; couldn't do it within 14 days but would reply within 30 days. Sounds like the standard response. We decided to be considerate and allow them the 30 days (couldn't but help my case in court I figured and what's a couple of weeks?) Bang on 30 days a letter arrived expressing disappointment etc etc and offering about a third of the amount "as a gesture of goodwill" and in full and final settlement. Have about a week to consider or they will deem the case closed.

[Welshman]

So, it goes to show that it helps not a jot to give them the time that they request. The response is always the same.

 

The 14 days to respond positively to the Prelim letter is accepted by the courts and the next 14 days to do likewise with the LBA is adequate.

 

Of course, it's up to you.

[Bookworm]

or they will deem the case closed.

 

Well then, they can just go and re-open it when you sue them, can't they?

 

I HATE this kind of verbal bullying.

[Johnsworld]

Hi everybody,

I'd appreciate some advice on my next step. Because I was a nice person and gave them the time they wanted to respond I don't think sending the Letter Before Action now would be appropriate because they HAVE responded (with a low offer nonetheless). I feel inclined to send the Response To Settlement letter, leaving out the paragraph that mentions the Letter Before Action. I assume they will then withdraw the offer at which point I can respond with the Letter Before Action.

Has anybody got an opinion or see any problems with what I propose?

I'd be much obliged for some thoughts on it.

Thanks,

John.

[Welshman]

Hey Mr Niceguy .

 

You've played it their way now it's time for you to take charge.

 

The template letters are tried and tested. I can understand your frustration but follow the guidlines in this site.

 

When I sent my rejection letter, they didn't withdraw the offer. It's still there should I want to accept.

 

Don't delay any longer - give them 14 more days only and file in Court.

 

Good Luck

[Johnsworld]

I've just read the newsletter and would like to know the difference between the two and what the consequences are for litigants. I have no doubt I will be taken down that road (Barclays like to push it, don't they?). I have read on this site that one can request the matter to be dealt with in the small claims court. Is that the best solution?

Thanks,

John.