Credit AGREEMENT -or- APPLICATION? RBS Advantage Card

[Guest Battleaxe]

Looks like an application for to me. I notice it is the same signature, applied with a rubber stamp

[evelyndarling]

hmmm. at the bottom it states...at the bottom it states, in the tiny writing ...

 

"regardless of wether or not my application is accepted i understand and agree that information about me may be used in accordance with paragraph 23 of the terms and conditions."

 

surely this is stating that it is not even agreed at this point and therefore cant be an aggreement?

 

hmmmm.

[itsmeandonlyme]

hello guys,

today i had 2 conversations one was with OFT expert and the other with Creation finance company secretary:)))The legal manager i used to deal with- left the company....

 

The expert from OFT said that there is no way application can be an agreement( i am talking about the application i had signed in store to obtain a store card...and never received an actual agreement)..She also said it has to run on 2-3 pages...

 

The company secretary...was convinced that their aplication is an agreement....I did point at that the copy of the application is not illegible( it's a copy of the copy..of the copy..of the copy:)))))))) and i hardly can read..

 

 

Phone number doesn't exist anymore:)))

And the letter that came with

 

 

 

 

 

 

let me know what you think:))))

 

 

Kind regards,

 

 

Maria

[Seahorse]

OK, for Soapy Joe, he's asked me to pop this on here for comments. Seems to me to be simply an application and missing some essential elements, but it IS a tad illegible, so difficult to say for sure.

 

It doesn't half go back a long way though. 12 years.

 

[starz 61]

It is an application.. deffo

[Zimmie]

Hi, I've just been to Asda, and I had a thought come to me over this application v agreement debate.....yes I know I must get a life

 

My thoughts were concerning the 'Right to Cancel' an agreement. I just found this on the BBC Credit FAQs:-

 

Under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, certain credit agreements can be cancelled provided there were face-to-face negotiations before the agreement (the place where these took place is immaterial) and you didn't sign the agreement on the trade premises of the creditor or supplier (for example, you signed at home or in your office).

However, you don't have long to cancel because the cancellation period ends five days after you receive the second copy of the agreement, which the creditor is obliged to send you. You must cancel in writing.

 

OK so my thoughts are:

 

1. If You have 5 days to cancel after receiving the 2nd copy of the agreement.....and you are sent in response to your CCA request, a copy of your original application form (as thats all they have!). How on earth could you have exercised your right to cancel in as much as there was no 2nd copy (the agreement).

 

2. If as many DCAs insist that the original application form is the agreement..you were still probably denied your right to cancel. E.g. the application form I was sent by DCA was signed by me on 9th June 19XX, it was signed by OC on 21st June 19XX...so my 5 days cooling off period was swallowed up by the time it took to be accepted.

 

3. My application form was a 2 sided single page affair sent out in a Union magazine...you know the sort...exclusive to blah blah Union Members...so there was no 2nd copy to send out. So the 2nd copy would have to be a distinctly different document...i.e. an agreement!

 

Does this make sense....if not tell me to shut up...I won't mind

[joneshousehold]

My understanding was that the second copy should be sent to you after it is signed by the creditor and your 5 days runs from the date you receive the second copy.

 

If the creditor didn't send out the 2nd copy as in your example, the agreement is fatally flawed and so is unenforceable. I always ask for evidence of when the copies were sent out for that reason.

[Zimmie]

Thanks Jones, you managed to understand my ramblings. I knew what I meant but was having difficulty explaining it.

So if an application form is not a no carbon required multiple copy type, and is a single page form it can't 'double' as an agreement. If it is suggested that it does double as application/agreement they have denied an applicant's right to cancel. Thats something else I can query with lovely Lowells.

Thanks again Jones for your valued response. Zim

[joneshousehold]

Wow Zim, I understood the earlier post but not sure if I understand this one! Have you had a look at the OFT guidelines on cancellable agreements. That's where I got my comments from. Link here in case you haven't seen it

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/consumer_credit/oft018.pdf

 

Page 24. Now I look at it again they have 7 days to send a copy except where executed on customer signing (then a separate notice of cancellation must be sent within 7 days)

 

If the document you describe is photocopied and sent, wouldn't that suffice as a second copy?

 

PS thanks for the click. Hope I haven't undone anything with this posting!

[Zimmie]

Hi Jones, I'm confusing myself now...I think its the 3rd glass of vino!!

 

The photocopy I have was sent following a CCA request from DCA, I'm currently disputing it as being an agreement, also disputing that be it application or agreement it has been folded and stapled before copying to hide a part of the PPI section.

My brain has been going into overdrive as the DCA are insistant upon its validity under the CCA 74, I suppose I'm just trying to find as many flaws as I can to keep throwing at them.

Just that when I thought of this one about cancellation rights, I thought it might be another area ripe for dissection.

 

Thanks for the link to OFT guidlines, I'm going to have a read.

 

Jones, you've been a great help. Zim

[joneshousehold]

I meant a photocopy as a second copy to be sent at the time the agreement starts and it should be sent within 7 days of the creditor signing it.

 

I have said to a few of my creditors that I shall require evidence of the issue of the 2nd copy or the cancellation notice. If that's what you mean then I agree with you and I think you are on the right lines. Ask for the evidence of issue, after all they will need to prove to the courts they have done so if they try to enforce the alleged 'agreement' won't they?

 

I have my two glasses of wine head on too, so perhaps we need to look at this again tomorrow (assuming the kids allow me to use my computer!)

[joneshousehold]

Dirtyharry - you have not quite interpreted the law right. The creditor should send the 2nd copy or cancellation form within 7 days (of signing I think). The debtor has 5 days FROM RECEIPT to cancel. I appreciate proving the date of receipt may be difficult if it is received more than the usual 2 days after posting allowed for by the courts but even so there is a very short time span when an agreement can be cancelled.

[Zimmie]

Dirty Harry,

I hadn't attempted to cancel the application.The copy application form I was sent is flawed in lots of obvious ways. I pointed this out to DCA who refuses to accept this and claims it is a valid agreement. I don't have a scanner so can't post it. The bit about cancellation rights came to me after I'd done a lot of reading on various threads and regulations, when I realised that if they are saying this is the agreement...my right to cancel was denied in that if you have a 5 day cooling off period from receipt of 2nd copy, and there is no second copy. The second copy would be an actual agreement, which obviously doesn't exist..seeing as they sent me a copy application.

I'm doing some hypothesising, because I'm starting to enjoy debating this with the DCA Yes I know its sad, but I get such satisfaction when I sense their frustration in their replies...remembering the hell they put me through before I found CAG.

Thanks to you both.

[joneshousehold]

Way to go Zimmie, this sounds promising. Ratchet up the pressure by asking a few pointed questions like 'when exactly did you send my second copy/cancellation notice' and please provide proof'

[go for it]

my partner requested a cca from littlewoods back in january which they sent but having read all through this thread we think they have sent a application form would be grateful for any opinions

 

[davefirewalker]

APPLICATION FORM

 

no t&c

no reference to t&c

no prescribed terms

no anything !!!!

 

Dave

[kennyparkroad]

Hi there

 

the document Littlewoods sent you is an application

 

send them this letter

 

 

 

 

I refer to your letter dated (date they sent it)

I note that you have sent me a copy of the application form for this account.

However, on the (date you sent CCA) I made a written request for a copy of the executed agreement under s77/78 CCA. This letter was sent by recorded delivery and signed for at your office on (DATE SIGNED FOR).

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.

 

Please note that your company is now in default as this request was not complied with within 12 working days as prescribed by the CCA, and that you have also committed a criminal offence by exceeding the further one month statutory time limit. (AMEND AS NECESSARY)

 

I now require that you provide me with a copy of the correct document, or your written acknowledgement that you are unable to do so, within 14 days of receipt of this letter.

 

Please also note that until such time as you do provide me with a true copy of this document, the agreement remains unenforceable and no further payments will be made.

[Peterbard]

Hi m55 and all

 

After reading your comments about s63 compliance I took another look at the whole s62/63 issue.

 

Under s62 (2) it states:

 

2) If the unexecuted agreement is sent to the debtor or hirer for his signature, a copy of it, and of any other document referred to in it, must be sent to him at the same time.

 

So - if a mailshot CC application (supposed agreement) is sent to someone, who then signs and returns it, shouldn't there be a copy of this application/'agreement' for him to keep - as per s62(2)??

 

i'e' if we accept the assertion that this document IS also an agreement, then it must be subject to s62.

 

This is what the OFT doc. on cancellable agreements says on the subject:

 

The general requirement for copy documents is that one copy of the agreement (including, if applicable, a notice of cancellation rights) must be given or sent to the customer when the original agreement is given or sent to him for signature. A first copy is not required where the agreement is neither presented personally nor sent to the customer for signature – for example, a document which is also an application form that a prospective customer picks up from a shop counter or from a leaflet dispenser.

 

So it seems that even the OFT thinks an application form can also be an agreement , but this implies that a first copy is only not required if the document is picked up by the customer.

 

Any comments?

 

Regards, Pam

 

Hi Pam

Been through this before the document referred to in the OFT gudline is an unexecuted agreement not an application for . If an agreement is signed ny the debtor it does not become executed untill it has been recieved and signed by the creditor. This is why a copy of the executed agreement hax to be sent withn seven days so the debtor can check it against the one he signed and if it differs he has the stutory cancellation period.

An application cannot be used as an agreement.

 

To my mind and not wishing to offend, this whole thrread is missleading for this reason, if the creditor says this is a credit agreement then that is what it is, it may not be properly executed, not have the correct form and content and not stand a hope in hell of being accepted in a court of law but that is for you to show.

If it says application form it is just that and no court in the land would except it as otherwise.

So the question is it an agreement or is it a contract can be answered simply as What does it say on the top.

 

Peter

 

Best regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

It is an application.. deffo

Hi

I posted this on the other thread and i think it has a bearing here it is from the OFT guidlines but ther is a more imn depth explination on the eximption regulations.

OTHER EXEMPTIONS

Regulated credit agreements for which there is no charge for credit and which satisfy the

conditions set out in the section on ‘exemption from the requirement to send a separate

notice of cancellation rights’ in the booklet Cancellable agreements (specialised types of

business such as catalogue mail order) are exempt from the requirements relating to the

disclosure of the APR and the inclusion of prescribed signature boxes and statements of

protection and remedies.

Office of Fair Trading 25

Regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

If you botherd to look at the CCA thread Mark 1 you would find what the difference is between an application form and an agreement see Peter Bards post and he has it from a goverment minister.

 

HI and thanks DH

 

I must have posted that letter half a dozen times yet the argument keeps on going.

 

Oh Well

 

Petr

[go for it]

thanks people

[ian1969uk]

Hi

I posted this on the other thread and i think it has a bearing here it is from the OFT guidlines but ther is a more imn depth explination on the eximption regulations.

 

OTHER EXEMPTIONS

Regulated credit agreements for which there is no charge for credit and which satisfy the

conditions set out in the section on ‘exemption from the requirement to send a separate

notice of cancellation rights’ in the booklet Cancellable agreements (specialised types of

business such as catalogue mail order) are exempt from the requirements relating to the

disclosure of the APR and the inclusion of prescribed signature boxes and statements of

protection and remedies.

 

Office of Fair Trading

25

 

Regards

 

Peter

 

 

WRITTEN AGREEMENTS

 

Catalogue debts are usually regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, unless the agreement requires less than 5 payments in 12 months, or where the credit you have been given has never been more than £50. The Consumer Credit Act 1974 requires a written credit agreement which must be signed by both the borrower and the lender.

INFORMATION

Although catalogue companies should give you a credit agreement under the terms of the Act this does not always happen. In this case, or if the agreement has not been signed by both parties, it is not enforceable in the county court.

 

[Jaranius]

xx

[Peterbard]

HI

 

No section 61 signing of agreements, not signing of aplication forms.

The forms you send in from the petrol station are unexecuted agreements if they were applications then the company would have to send you an agreement back for you to sign,as confirmed by the OFT DTI now and on many occassions on the loan company thread over the last six months an appliction form Cannot be used as an agreement.

 

 

The quataion you have from the uncancellable agreement OFT pamphlet is only in there becaase this type of none distance contract is unenforceable because their has been no anticedent negotiations, and has nothing to do with using aplications.

 

What you are sending off is an unexecuted agreement if the creditor does not aprove it he wil not execute it by signing it section 61.

An application is an entirely differnt animal and is a request for a contract to be sent.

 

Best regards

 

Peter

[Jaranius]

xx