Bandit v NatWest - The Full Story And Finally**WON**

[bram stoker]

Bandit,

 

See the post I just made here.

 

Happy calculating.

[Tinkerbelle]

Hi Bandit,

 

Take a look at my thread here

[the_toilet_bandit]

Thanks Vampy and Tinks.....both a great help

 

back to highlighting and adding up......

 

Mickie xoxox

[the_toilet_bandit]

well that made for some interesting reading....here's my facts and figures:

 

Opened acct in Feb 2001

Charges accrued between Feb 2001 and April 2006 £1191.03

 

That works out as NW screwing me over £200 a year!!!

 

And another surprise, I had a charge for £33.03, and it wasn't an interest charge as I had already had one for that particular month, all the description said was a date, and my acct number anyone else had a 'funny' charge?

 

Anyway not going to do anything just now, I'm just gonna hassle them about this DPA until they reply with something not standard, will prolly use the following points:

• With all the news about identity theft, why did you decide to send my statements in an unsuitable envelope suseptical (sp?) to damage? (will enclose one of the many copies of the damage glamour photos i had taken)
  
• Why did you send me just statements when I paid for a SAR? If I wanted statements i would have said so.
  
• Why did i not get any confirmation about manual intervention?
  
• unless you do not have it why are you refraining from sending me EVERYTHING about my account ie telephone call messages, overdraft limits which as per the SAR I required?

And with chatting to my friendly customer advisor at my branch (I know it's rare to see them, rarer than rocking horse s--t) i managed to wangle out a printout of my complaint regarding the envelopes they use complete with claim number etc. so i will add that in and demand a reason why. (prolly wont get one but if I do, will DEFINITELY post on here). I could also be really picky and ask why I not only received my statements, but copies of random pages within my statement, and why I also received a page from SOMEONE ELSE'S STATEMENT. (the poor fellow's deceased and his account had been cleared and close but hey, what if it was an active account and what if I was as dishonest as NW anyway?

 

I'll post the draft on here before I send it anyway, will be looking thru the threads for inspiration anyway, but if you feel anything could be added please shout out and let me know.

 

PS sorry for this thread starting to turn into a 'blog' I just thought I'd give an exact stage by stage account of everything I did, to helpie fellow newbie peeps like me

 

Mickie

[Movingon]

Receiving someone else's information is a serious (read BLOODY SERIOUS) breach of the Act and could lead to ritual decapitations, much wailing, and gnashing of teeth. I would send a photocopy of this information to the ICO... in fact Dave (or BankFodder) has given some excellent advice about how to deal with a "someone elses info incident"... but I can't remember where. Help, someone?!

[Movingon]

and Re: your PS - that's exactly how this site likes you to operate

[the_toilet_bandit]

OK this is where I hate my learning disability, Template letters I'm happy with, but thinking up my own material is so difficult. Anyway I've given it a go, it needs a lot of improvement so any comments would be much appreciated. Would I be right with them sending me anyone's account details means they've been naughty and I have them by the short and curlies in this particular point of the case?

Mr Stuart Higley

Customer Relations

Ground Floor

National Westminster House

225 Shenley Road

BOREHAMWOOD

WD8 1TE

 

 

Re: Data Protection Act 1998 subject access request

 

 

Dear Mr Higley

 

 

Account Number XXXXXXXX

Sort Code XX-XX-XX

 

 

I am in receipt of the documents that you have supplied in response to my Data Protection Act information request dated 8 May 2006. However, I would like to bring to your attention a number of things.

 

 

As stated in my original request, I also require disclosure of any event in my account history whereby manual intervention has taken place, or to confirm that there has been no such intervention. Can I make it clear that I require all indications and notes relevant to my account, no matter how menial and unimportant they seem. Accordingly, I have to tell you that you have not yet complied with your obligations under the Data Protection Act 1998 and that you have a further 24 days to comply.

 

 

I am also deeply unhappy and concerned with the way my statements were packaged and also the actual sorting of statements themselves. The envelope the statements were in were obviously designed to hold A4 documents, with NatWest's statements being A5. When I received the package the envelope was torn at the edges, due to the statements not being held securely enough inside. I enclose a photo I took showing the damage caused.

 

 

Surely with the growing worry of identity fraud you would have made sure that the packaging would not have been able to reveal the contents? I have raised a complaint with my local branch (Bridport) and I would like to be informed regarding this issue. My CQMS Case Reference is 0000000XXXXXXX.

 

 

I also have a particular worry as not only did I receive a complete set of statements, along with some random duplicate pages, I also received a statement page from another person's account showing their complete account details. I enclose a photocopy and would like to be advised as to what to do with the original.

 

 

I personally believe that your actions regarding a simple request have been outrageous and I cannot fathom how an organisation like yourselves can be so slack and irresponsible with people's confidentiality. I shall be informing the Financial Ombudsman, my Member of Parliament and(any other organisations you forum peeps want to advise) and I shall also be sending them anything that they require.

 

 

I would be very interested to know what your views are on this and I request that this letter is read and that I receive a reply that is not "standard issue"

 

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

 

Mr Toilet Bandit

 

Like I said, it's by nowhere means finished, and the worst bit is I have to think up more letters for the Ombo etc..... Any ideas greatly appreciated

 

Mickie

[bram stoker]

I like the complaint about the envelope. I was told in a Natwest branch that the more people complain, the better the chance of them doing something about it. Yeah right.

 

Anyway, if you have all your statements and no notes of manual intervention, you can assume there are none, as they will look very red faced in court if they subsequently produce some after being requested to earlier.

[the_toilet_bandit]

true vamps, but if I can get a confirmation then if they produce it in court, it'll be a big point to me

 

This is the letter I wrote my MP:

Dear Mr Letwin,

 

Many thanks for your letter dated 18 May in reply to my letter of 8 May and I hope the response you receive from the OFT is a good one. I have however, a fairly major concern that I feel you should also be made aware of.

 

 

I requested a copy of my bank statements from my bank, NatWest, from when I opened my account in February 2001 to the present statement cycle and paid the statutory maximum fee of £10.

 

 

I am deeply unhappy and concerned with the way my statements were packaged. The envelope the statements were in was an A4 document letter, with NatWest's statements being A5. When I received the package the envelope was torn at the edges, due to the statements not fitting securely enough inside. I enclose a photo I took showing the damage caused.

 

 

I also received in amongst my pile of statements, most worryingly, a statement from someone else's account, showing their sort code, their account number, and their name. It also shows a transfer to a different account, revealing the account number and sort code again.

 

 

I am frankly outraged that not only have they been slack and irresponsible with my account details and confidentiality by packaging them in such a way that I feel like they were 'cost-cutting' rather than making sure of my confidentiality, but if they are more than happy to give me anyone's statement, it makes me wonder who could end up with pages of my account history.

 

 

I have enclosed a copy of my letter that I have sent to the Customer Relations Manager of NatWest, a Mr Stuart Higley. I will also be contacting the Financial Ombudsman about this matter.

 

 

I would like to know what your views are on this matter Mr Letwin. I just feel so aggrieved over the situation and I also feel that my voice alone won't mean much to NatWest.

 

 

I look forward to your reply and thank you for your time.

 

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

 

 

Mr Toilet Bandit

 

Enc.

 

Hopefully my sucking up on the last paragraph will help

[ilaister]

's an interesting one. And you got one of the stars of the political world for your MP too!

 

Best of luck with your claim, your letters look perfect to me.

[the_toilet_bandit]

ok letters have been posted.....IC and Ombo have been notified but nothing they can really do until i get a reply back.....will stick everything on here and when i've received my money i'll create a new thread and tidy it up completely and maybe one of the mods will delete this one no rush yet though....i can see this being dragged out, but im gonna get it back whether NW like it or not

[the_toilet_bandit]

Dear Mr Toilet Bandit

 

Thank you for your letter of 29 May 2006.

 

I was sorry to read about the condition of the envelope that had been used for posting the statements when it reached you. This is unacceptable and I apologise for the inconvenience. While the envelope should comfortably withstand normal handling, I will ensure that future such delieves are sent out either in a different type of envelope or have additional security tape attached.

 

I am grateful to you for alerting me to this problem.

 

I am also disappointed that insufficient care was taken before the statements were posted to you. A check should have been made to ensure all statements were present and there were no statements for other customers. If you would kindly return the offending statement to me in the enclosed prepaid envelope, I will arrange for it to be sent to the rightful recipient. Thank you.

 

Your dissatisfaction was noted at the branch under the reference you quoted together with a note that they had refunded you with the Subject Access fee.

 

With information supplied under a Subject Access request, our Compliance Unit will supply all information held, regardless of its importance. Only certain aspects that can be withheld, as agreed by the Information Commisioner, will be excluded. Because of the importance attached to the provisions of the Data Protection Act, all aspects of this nature are handled exclusively by our dedicated Compliance experts and it is they who will furnish you with the information in due course. Our branches and other departments play no meaningful part in the compilation of data.

 

It is not possible to determine if and when any manual intervention took place. If any member of our staff is required to take action, for example making a telephone call, locating a cheque or direct debit to be returned to the presenter as a matter of routine they would not generate a file note.

 

In the extremely unlikely event that a note was to be made, it would only be retained on computer file for a period of six months before automatic deletion. I have checked your file notes today and there is no mention of an event where manual intervention took place.

 

Of course, we shall be pleased to co-operate with any approach that we receive from your MP or the Financial Ombudsman service and I am genuinely sorry that you have been put to the trouble of contacting them.

 

I am dissappointed by the shortcomings associated with the statement delivery and apologise unreservedly for the upset we have caused. I agree with you absolutely that in this age of identity fraud every precaution should be taken to prevent information falling into wrong hands. Quite simply, we have let you down.

 

I assume that you have asked for statements to review the charges that have been applied to your accounts over the past six years. The OFT issued a statement on 5 April following their investigation into administration charges on credit cards and we have until today to respond to them. At the time of writing I have no fresh information that I can share with you but I suspect over the course of the next day or so the responces of the various banks will be reported widely.

 

Thank you again for writing to me.

 

Yours sincerely

 

(not a computer siggy, some fountain pen squiggle that looks nothing like Higley)

 

Stuart Higley

Senior Manager

 

Will be interesting to see whether future DPAs will be packaged differently, I think. Also from what i gather, as he's practically said no manual intervention takes place, he's lost that argument when/if it gets to court. I love the last two paragraphs, makes him look like a small child that knows he's in trouble on the 2nd to last, and looks like he's starting to take the hint about BAG on the last.

 

If anyone can give further insight post away

[MARTIN3030]

Responces of the banks ??????

 

 

He did so well then cocked up at the end !!

 

 

(it was the managers ????)

 

 

:idea:

[the_toilet_bandit]

lol no it was my cock up....cant be bothered to change it so it's staying like that:p

[Omega 3]

Stuart Higley seems to be sending the same letter stating that he is sorry about the condition of the envelopes containing the statements! If thats the case why dont they do something about it!

 

I too have a letter stating that bank charges are applied automatically and that no manual intervention ha staken place, so it will be interesting to see if they try to argue that in court!

[the_toilet_bandit]

grrrr halfway thru printing my prelim letter and my printer goes up in smoke (literally)

 

Having to wait till wedsnesday now till my new one gets delivered.....

 

[twiddles thumbs]

[the_toilet_bandit]

 

Had a reply from my MP regarding the OFT's position, and regarding my NW statements....here it is!

 

Dear Mr Toilet Bandit

 

Thankyou for your letter of 28 May

 

At about the same time as receiving your letter, the attached response from the OFT arrived. Do, please, let me have your views once you have had an opportunity to consider John Fingleton's reply.

 

I am most concerned to hear of the way in which you received your statements from NatWest, especially with regard to receiving a statement destined for another customer.

 

Do, please, let me have a copy of the response you receive from the Customer relations Manager. If it is not satisfactory, I should be more than happy to take up your case with the Chairman of NatWest.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

With best wishes.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Ollie

 

He enclosed his reply from John Fingleton, here it is......

 

Dear Mr Letwin

 

Unlawful penalty charges

Thankyou for your letter of 18 May, enclosing correspondence from your constituent, Mr Toilet Bandit of Bridport. You have asked me for our comments on the points raised by Mr. Toilet Bandit about penalty charges levied by high street banks and for information that the OFT has done on this subject.

 

The OFT is aware of many concerns about penalty charges. We have recently carried out an investigation, under the Unfair Terms in consumer Contracts regulations 1999, specifically into credit card default charges. We stated in July 2005 our provisional conclusion that eight major credit card issuers were setting default charges too high and wrote to them to consult on this view. The closing date for responses was 25 October 2005. Please see our press release attached. Further copies can be downloaded from our website.

 

Since October, we have been working through the issuers' detailed legal arguments and confidential accounting information, holding meetings and seeking more information where necessary. As a result of that work, we published a final statement of our position on the calculation of fair default charges in credit card contracts, on 5 April 2006. The relevant press release can also be downloaded from our website. I attach a hard copy for your information.

 

The statement sets out our view of the principles credit card issuers should follow in setting default charges. The broad principles set out in this statement are likely to be relevant to other default charges in standard agreement with cunsumers, such as those for mortgages, store cards and bank accounts. We have said that we expect the banks and other financial businesses to consider the wider implications of these principles, and to bring any similar charges they impose for breach of contract into line with them, where and as appropriate bearing in mind the different legal and practical contexts in which they operate. If appropriate steps are not taken within a reasonable timescale, further regulatory investigation of the positions can be expected.

 

We are not ruling out the possibility of taking legal action in future if we feel it appropriate. However, the OFT cannot obtain redress for individuals. Individual consumers are free to take action themselves but should seek independant advice if they want further advice about their rights and obligations under their credit card agreement. We would also strongly recommend that consumers having financial difficulties seek early help and advice from one of the free advice agencies such as Citizens Advice, Citizens Advice Scotland, Advice UK or Consumer Credit Counselling Service.

 

The OFT published a guide for consumers clarifying our position regarding the credit card default charges and providing further advice. Again also available on our website, I attach a hard copy for your information.

 

Yours sincerely

 

John Fingleton

Chief Executive

 

His enclosures were:

 

OFT consults with eight credit card companies on the level of their default charges - 26 July 2005

 

Current credit card default charges unfair - 5 April 2006

 

OFT's action on credit card default charges (Adobe Acrobat needed)

 

Looking at the OFT letter I can only see paragraph 4 as being of any relevance. However, my MP wants my views on it, so if anyone has any views I shall add them into my letter. It seems he really wants to do something about it.

 

PS. Received my monthly statement and this was on my charges/advice interest sheet:

CHARGES ALREADY REFUNDED

 

A charge for the previous period was reduced from £28.00 to £0.00 on 31 May 2006.

Isn't that nice of them, only another £1200 to go

 

Mickie

[MARTIN3030]

Whooooooooooooo

 

The Chairman himself ??????????

 

Nice one..........and looks like you will soon have some money to pay for more than your broken printer !!

 

 

[the_toilet_bandit]

Well, Prelim letter sent, now I've hooked up the new printer

 

The Fun is beginning again

 

Mickie

[Tinkerbelle]

Wow!! You are certainly going for it aren't you!!

 

Well done, your confidence seems to be growing with every post

[MARTIN3030]

BTW maybe you can tell your bank manager Tesco are selling some really nice envelopes dead cheap.

 

(I believe one of the big banks underwrite the tesco insurance)

 

 

Not only will he get good comments after posting statements with dpa info.....he will also get clubcard points..................which he can use towards his next purchase of ........................er................ envelopes.

 

 

 

[the_toilet_bandit]

Dear Mr Toilet Bandit

 

Thankyou for your letter of 7 June 2006 and for returning the statement. I have arranged for this to be redirected to it's rightful destination immediately. I am very grateful to you for returning it to me and I apologise again for the mistake that was made.

 

With respect, i didn't confirm that there has been any manual intervention on your account. In the event that there had been manual intervention, there was no requirement to make a note of such action and therefore I have no record to make reference against. This does not mean that there was no such intervention.

 

There is nothing I can add constructively to my last letter except that we have since responded to the OFT statement of the 5 April 2005. After due consideration, we do not accept its findings in relation to the setting of credit card fees. We are concerned that the Office or Fair Trading has publicly called into question the setting of charges applied to other products, including current accounts. The Office of Fair Trading has restricted it's investigation to credit cards and made no attempt to consult with RBS or the industry in relation to other entirely different products.

 

I am sorry to disappoint you but we will not be refunding any past charges, and as a consequence, I note your proposed action. I have alerted our lawyers and litigation department to this development and they will deal with any papers that you issue at the appropriate time. To ensure that they reach the rightful place as quickly as possible, can I please ask you to serve those papers on our registered Office address, which appears below. Thank you.

 

Thank you again for writing to me and returning the statement.

 

Yours sincerely

 

[squiggle]

 

Stuart Higley

Senior Manager

 

Off with the LBA then! I'm quite surprised I'm not getting standard letters, but then again, I am rewriting the templates (putting sentences in different orders, etc.) and requesting non-standardisation.

 

Also interesting to see that they don't accept the OFT's finding and seem to be prepared to ignore it. Oh well, keep you posted

[MARTIN3030]

Off with the LBA then! I'm quite surprised I'm not getting standard letters, but then again, I am rewriting the templates (putting sentences in different orders, etc.) and requesting non-standardisation.

 

Also interesting to see that they don't accept the OFT's finding and seem to be prepared to ignore it. Oh well, keep you posted

 

Of course they dont accept it..........if they DID it would make our claims a lot easier !!!

 

Have to laugh at their remarks about manual intervention there is none ....but then again there might be ?

 

Looks like they are pushing you further along and even have the audacity to give you a referral pointer to their legal guys.

 

Did you keep a copy of the other persons bank details they wrongly supplied you ?

 

that one was really quite dynamite and they know it.

 

[the_toilet_bandit]

Dear Mr Letwin,

 

Thankyou for your letter of 5 June 2006.

 

 

I enclose a copy of the reply give to me by Mr Stuart Higley, Senior Manager of NatWest's Customer Relations Unit, in relation to myself receiving somebody else's personal private account details and the poor attempt to securely send my own statements. It seems to me that he is genuinely sorry for the errors, but it would be interesting to see if anything is done regarding the matter in future.

 

 

I have read through the enclosed reply from John Fingleton and I thankyou for taking the time to write to him. I believe that the OFT should also make a separate investigation as to the charges levied by banks regarding current accounts. I believe it should be a separate investagtion, as to me, the OFT's stance on current account charges etc. seem a bit vague.

 

 

I am also in communication with Mr Higley regarding the refunding of my bank charges. During my last correspondance with Mr Higley, he has stated that NatWest do not accept the OFT's findings in relation to the credit card charges. Does that mean that they weill appeal the OFT's findings and keep unlawfully appying extortionate charges to peoples accounts? I also enclose a copy of this latest correspondence as I would like you to know what one high street banks' opinion is on the OFT report.

 

 

I look forward to your reply and thank you for your time.

 

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

 

 

Mr Toilet Bandit

 

Enc.

 

 

Yes I did keep a copy, as theres a bank transfer transaction that gives me another set of account details.....proper dynamite.

 

OMG just noticed the spelling.....could have sworn I spellchecked it.....hopefully it should be ok, cuz I got my hand stuck in a postbox before, not going to do THAT again

[the_toilet_bandit]

Ok, I posted the LBA letter along with my reply to Ollie. Also phoned up my County corst and asked for the info as I was wanting to put a Small Claims case in, that should arrive soon. One of the big peeps here (maybe BF) mentioned somewhere that now is the time to get up to speed with the court processes.

 

I'm not showing shock or surprised at it getting to court (been reading the FAQs again ) I'm relishing the opportunity. It's just I want to go in fully armed, just for my own peace of mind really, I don't want them to walk all over me when I'm there. I know that most if not all the cases are being settled before the court stage, but I want to be fully prepared if mine gets defended in court, especially with the profiling that sir Trev's programme gave this site. I can imagine theres been a steep rise in registrations for here? Thinking back on that programme, if loads of people take up the fight, it said that one day it might get moved to a higher court, I'm just slightly anxious that it might be mine. (btw, your wife's well tasty, dave).

 

But anyway, back to my point. I've been hunting around for all the codes of practice that the banks are breaking, I've obviously missed a place cuz I cant find them anywhere. Can someone point me in the direction of what and which subsection, paragraph thingies apply? just so I can learn and print them off for use, if it gets that far. I'm also going to do a googlysearch and see if there is anything in print online that can help me, although points in those directions would be gratefully received also. It might seem like i'm getting too much into this, but I just want to be prepared in case it goes all the way.

 

Many thanks in advance to those that can point the way :o)