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    • The private submersible industry was shaken after the implosion of the OceanGate Titan sub last year.View the full article
    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
    • Thanks for all the suggestions so far I will amend original WS and send again for review.  While looking at my post at very beginning when I submitted photos of signs around the car park I noticed that it says 5 hours maximum stay while the signage sent by solicitor shows 4 hours maximum stay but mine is related to electric bay abuse not sure if this can be of any use in WS.
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Should I use the financial ombudsman?


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Hi again,

 

Reading through the FAQ section (yes, I did, right the way to the end, honestly), it says that I should explore all avenues for reclaiming funds before resorting to legal action, but makes no mention of the financial ombudsman.

 

Having sent initial correspondance to HSBC regarding my wife's charges, they have responded with a flat refusal to refund and a letter saying they will refuse to enter into any further correspondance on the matter, and if we wish to take matters further, we should contact the financial ombudsman.

 

Should we?

 

If we don't, and the claim does go to court, would it count against us that we hadn't tried that option? Alternatively, if we do try it, and nothing comes of it (as seems to be the general outcome) would that count against us in court?

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In short don't waste your time, send the LBA assuming you sent them the prelim, when they ignore it file your claim at court.

 

The court will see you have given them at least 28 days to do something positive and be happy.

 

HTH

 

Glenn

Kick the shAbbey Habit

 

Where were you? Next time please

 

 

Abbey 1st claim -Charges repaid, default removed, interest paid (8% apr) costs paid, Abbey peed off; priceless

Abbey 2nd claim, two Accs - claim issued 30-03-07

Barclaycard - Settled cheque received

Egg 2 accounts ID sent 29/07

Co-op Claim issued 30-03-07

GE Capital (Store Cards) ICO says theyve been naughty

MBNA - Settled in Full

GE Capital (1st National) Settled

Lombard Bank - SAR sent 16.02.07

MBNA are not your friends, they will settle but you need to make sure its on your terms -read here

Glenn Vs MBNA

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I too agree, however this is oddly related to something that happened yesterday evening.

 

Sky called us (we haven't paid them for a while) and my wife spoke them, mentioning at one point that we were claiming back charges. The person at Sky said he had done the same, but he had used the Financial Ombudsman and got his charges back straight away. Unfortunately my wife didn't tell me this until after the call, otherwise I would have pressed for further details. First I've heard of the ombudsman taking any actual action though.

If you found this post useful please click on the scales above.

 

Egg - £400 - Prelim sent. On hold.

Mint - On the list Est £800

GE Capital - On the list (3 accounts!) Est £4000

 

MBNA - £545 Prelim sent 13/11/2006

LBA sent 1/12/2006

£350 partial payment received 18/12/2006.

Full settlement received 20/1/07

 

NatWest - Est £4000 not incl interest

Data Protection Act Sent 10/1/07

Statements received 24/1/07

Prelim sent 3/2/07

Full Settlement received 22/2/07

 

The contents of this post are the sole opinions of The Cornflake and not necessarily the opinions of any other members of this group. They do not constitute sound legal or financial advice and if in doubt you are advised to seek advice from a qualified professional

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In the Daily Express (Your Money page 36) today there is a quote from the FOS:-

 

"Every single consumer who has come to us has had a refund of charges, says Emma Parker at the FOS. As soon as we approach a Bank about a customer claiming to have been charged unfairly, they have been offered a settlement before we need to intervene any further."

 

Hmm I wonder! It's the first I have heard of it. I have no experience of claiming unlawful charges via the FOS but they were helpful (and successful) in my claim for refund of PPI from Lloyds

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Perhpas it is worth investigating after all.

 

My take on this is that if the FOS gets you your charges, interest you paid on those charges and interest on the lot, then it may be worth pursuing if they are quicker than the courts.

 

Last time i heard was that claims were notbeing dealt with until at least six months after submission, hence my original comment.

 

Somehting esle to consider is if you wish to claim back beyond 6 years and whether contractual interest is part of your objectives.

 

If you went to the FOS and asked but didnt get these then it may be impossible for you to proceed to court to get what I believe you are entitled to, assuing the bank offer full settlement of the charges and interest paid already by the claimant.

 

JMHO

 

Glenn

Kick the shAbbey Habit

 

Where were you? Next time please

 

 

Abbey 1st claim -Charges repaid, default removed, interest paid (8% apr) costs paid, Abbey peed off; priceless

Abbey 2nd claim, two Accs - claim issued 30-03-07

Barclaycard - Settled cheque received

Egg 2 accounts ID sent 29/07

Co-op Claim issued 30-03-07

GE Capital (Store Cards) ICO says theyve been naughty

MBNA - Settled in Full

GE Capital (1st National) Settled

Lombard Bank - SAR sent 16.02.07

MBNA are not your friends, they will settle but you need to make sure its on your terms -read here

Glenn Vs MBNA

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I think it might be worth trying to contact this Emma Parker and finding out more information. Plus it doesn't say the banks offer the full amounts. And I'm sure they don't add on contractual interest, but you could always add it on and then contact the FOS.

If you found this post useful please click on the scales above.

 

Egg - £400 - Prelim sent. On hold.

Mint - On the list Est £800

GE Capital - On the list (3 accounts!) Est £4000

 

MBNA - £545 Prelim sent 13/11/2006

LBA sent 1/12/2006

£350 partial payment received 18/12/2006.

Full settlement received 20/1/07

 

NatWest - Est £4000 not incl interest

Data Protection Act Sent 10/1/07

Statements received 24/1/07

Prelim sent 3/2/07

Full Settlement received 22/2/07

 

The contents of this post are the sole opinions of The Cornflake and not necessarily the opinions of any other members of this group. They do not constitute sound legal or financial advice and if in doubt you are advised to seek advice from a qualified professional

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Yes - I bet the Bank offer would not include any interest. My claim for refund of PPI and interest is being dealt with by the FSO and they have been successful in as much as the Bank refunded the premiums (without notifying me or the FSO) but without interest that I was claiming. The FSO are now persuing this. So this forums idea of a successful claim and Emmas Parkers may not be the same!

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  • 4 months later...
Yes - I bet the Bank offer would not include any interest. My claim for refund of PPI and interest is being dealt with by the FSO and they have been successful in as much as the Bank refunded the premiums (without notifying me or the FSO) but without interest that I was claiming. The FSO are now persuing this. So this forums idea of a successful claim and Emmas Parkers may not be the same!

 

Hi all,

 

This is my question also. While the FOS may be getting settlements, can anyone confirm if these settlements are for the costs plus contractural interest? I am about to send off my first letter and would like to know if I should go the FOS or courts route? It would definatly be the courts route if I thought the FOS were only getting costs and not contractural interest repaid.

 

Volkswagen

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I was watching the BBC Breakfast show yesterday (02/06/07). They had a bloke from Which? on, who said they were advising people to complain to the FSO rather than to go through the courts, as the court claims were now a lottery.

 

Is this a viable option now? I have 2 ongoing court claims, one in the early stages, but the other I am doing my bundle and have a court date for the 21/06/07.

 

Are things with court claims still reasonably successful, or is the situation becoming more uncertain?

Nationwide-A&L-Halifax 1-Student Loans Company-NatWest-Virgin Media-Link-Capital One ALL WON!

Thames Credit -statute barred sent 13/11/08

BCW- prove debt letter- 14/08/08

Apex- CCA 14/08/08

Redcats UK- SAR 14/04/09

Call Serve- CCA 14/08/08

Littlewoods- no CCA letter 03/09/08- Lowells now

Wescot- CCA 19/9/08

Capital One/Debitas- now with Lowells

 

Any opinions are without prejudice & without liability. All information has been obtained from this site. If you are unsure, please seek professional advice. .

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See FAQs - complaints about bank charges which would seem to suggest that bank's prefer not to have the FOS investigate. Youngest's claim against Halifax has been denied and this would seem the next step to take I think. At least worth a shot.

 

S

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

IANAL - Opinions offered are just my personal views and are not guaranteed to be correct. I have been known to be wrong (once or twice).

Claims in progress against:

Eldest - First Direct - Part Offer received - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/first-direct/79619-eldest-fd.html

Eldest - Halifax - Cheque Received Full amount - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/66254-here-we-go-eldest.html

Youngest - Halifax x 3 - Request for refund sent - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/79617-youngest-halifax.html

Eldest - unnamed Mortgage Provider for Charges and incorrect maths.

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half ax I,

 

FOS say - If a bank offers to settle a complaint in full, there is nothing for the ombudsman to decide. We don’t look into cases where a consumer has not suffered a loss – or where reasonable offers have been made.

 

I am still worried because the only reasonable offer that I would be happy with is full settlement because of the amount of money involved (£14k) and the fact that our family went through 6 years of hardship because we were in the clutches of the bank and could not get ourselves out largely because of the fees we were continually being charged. Several times we paid a fee of £700 each time they met us to discuss the fees etc.

 

Volkswagen

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Volswagen

I guess it depends on the individual circumstances. The paragraph before the one you have quoted indicates that they haven't yet had to go forward with an investigation - I guess because the banks don't want that level of intrusion from FOS. I am assuming that the banks cough up in full for the charges and maybe without interest.

 

Sorry to hear of your hardship. I can't see how they could justify a fee of £700 for any service. What do they call that service?

 

As I see it the FOS option is a no lose one. It doesn't stop you following other routes via the court and should at least reopen negotiations with the bank if an offer is forthcoming, which in our case will be better than the current get lost final response.

 

To reply to Kermit Powers last question in original post. I don't think it will count against you. On the contrary you would appear to have explored all avenues prior to litigation and satisfies the "Over-riding Objectives" of the Civil Procedure Rules.

 

S

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

IANAL - Opinions offered are just my personal views and are not guaranteed to be correct. I have been known to be wrong (once or twice).

Claims in progress against:

Eldest - First Direct - Part Offer received - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/first-direct/79619-eldest-fd.html

Eldest - Halifax - Cheque Received Full amount - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/66254-here-we-go-eldest.html

Youngest - Halifax x 3 - Request for refund sent - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/79617-youngest-halifax.html

Eldest - unnamed Mortgage Provider for Charges and incorrect maths.

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I don't know whether this will help with the FOS and their timescales, but I sent my daughter's claim to FOS against Lloyds TSB on 23rd April, I also copied in the MP. Did this because she is on benefits. Charges were refunded on 1st May 07. Not sure if this was because of MP or FOS. She was claiming £320 and they paid her £350. I did advise FOS however for some reason they have carried on with the claim as she had a letter on Saturday advising her that they had written to Lloyds and they would come back with their response within 4 weeks.

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Just to close out my part of the thread which I originally started, I did take my wife's claim through the ombudsman.

 

When I first wrote to the bank, I took what I thought was a reasonable approach of asking them to refund all charges over £12 per incident, as that was the maximum amount recently published by the RSA for credit card charges.

 

HSBC refused to refund so much as a penny. :sad:

 

So, I waited. I figured I'd see if there was a ruling in the interim on bank charges. There wasn't, so I took it to the ombudsman who said "sorry, this is more than 6 months after your complaint to the bank, so we can't deal with it". :sad:

 

I explained to them that I'd been waiting to see if a ruling would come out that would save me and them time and effort in getting a judgement. They agreed that this was reasonable, and that they would investigate the case. :)

 

10 days later, HSBC made an offer to refund all the charges made in the past 6 years before the claim, plus the lesser amount of charges made since the process first began. :D

 

Personally, I take the view that a portion of these charges was perfectly justifiable, since my wife had been pretty crap with her money, so we didn't hold out for interest or anything but accepted that. Had HSBC agreed to my original request, then they would've saved themselves over £2k!

 

So, the moral of the story is this - don't hesitate to use the Ombudsman. They were extremely efficient, nice people to deal with, and you also actual names and email addresses for the people handling your case, rather than having to go through a call centre. :D I really couldn't recommend them too highly!

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My personal experience of the Ombudsman and talking with the Adjudicator on 3 cases is that they are very quick.

 

They will aim to conclude your claim within 4 - 6 weeks. They send emails to their own contact within the bank which is immediate and the bank knows you are now serious. Every bank has an 'Ombudsman' contact.

 

Process :

 

After you send your form they will pass to an adjudicator within 2 weeks.

 

Adjudicator will write to the bank asking for schedule of all charges and proof of actual cost within 2 weeks, prior to formal action starting (this is if you have already gone over the 8 weeks you have to give the bank).

 

At this time bank will make you an offer as they don't want to give proof to the Ombudsman of actual costs.

 

If you refuse the offer, you will get another offer within 2 weeks again.

 

If you cannot agree a settlement then the Ombudsman will start formal action, but up to date they have not had to adjudicate on an actual case.

 

The Adjudicator is on email so you can ask anything you want and they do answer back.

 

They will get back charges + interest on charges + stat 8% interest for you.

 

They told me this on the initial chat priro to the complaint and this is what i have been offered in 2 claims out of 3. I have yet to lodge more claims with them.

 

I keep in touch with the Adjudicator by phone and email and in conversations have been told they consider 8% fair (after discussing it with each other) as it is more than any savings rate i would receive, rather than the 'default interest' i asked for at the unauthorised rate.

 

They raise a letter asking for detailed costings information about the charges from the bank prior to a formal investigation, as a court would do, and rather than provide this to the Ombudsman the bank will make the offer of charges + stat interest as this is as far as the Ombudsman will take it for you.

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I tried FOS for a small C1 claim to see what would happen. C1 offered the difference between my charges and 12 quid, the FOS adjudicator said that this was 42% of my claim and that FOS believed anything over 40% was fair.

I turned it down and I'm now taking it to court. tThis means then that

 

A. Not all cases are settled

 

and

 

B. That FOS advise settleing over 40% offers therefore not all settled cases are 100% money back

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Forgot to mention that FOS get 360 quid from the bank for every complaint handled. This means that as a private company its in their interests to handle as many cases as possible i,e tell everyone that they win for you!

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C1 offered the difference between my charges and 12 quid, the FOS adjudicator said that this was 42% of my claim and that FOS believed anything over 40% was fair.

 

Is that 40% of the whole claim with contractual interest at the same rate as the credit card provider or 40% of only the charges?

 

40% of the whole claim with CI would be almost 100% of the charges.

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Forgot to mention that FOS get 360 quid from the bank for every complaint handled. This means that as a private company its in their interests to handle as many cases as possible i,e tell everyone that they win for you!

 

They are a private company but their mandate is parliamentary.

 

They don't tell anyone that they will win for you. All the customer operators i have spoken to do not provide any advice at all, they simply take your claim and pass it to an adjudicator.

 

The adjudicator then writes to the bank with the amount you have requested. If the bank disagrees with this then you have to provide evidence.

 

Its just like court, you would not get away with anything without sufficient evidence, as some recent cases have shown. It's the same with the Ombudsman if they have to have a formal investigation then they need both sides of the story. At this stage the bank will pay.

 

But i agree, maybe if the bank offers 40% then they might not take it further but i think each adjudicator has his/her own opinions as a different one deals with each bank.

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ok they might not tell you they will win for you, but simply lie and say that they have won for everyone else.

This has not happened because I wanted 100% and they didnt get it for me and I dont believe im the only one

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Forgot to mention that FOS get 360 quid from the bank for every complaint handled. This means that as a private company its in their interests to handle as many cases as possible i,e tell everyone that they win for you!

 

Only if they launch a formal complaint. The banks normally settle prior to this hence they don't charge the bank anything.

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don't forget that the Fo ruling is only binding on the banks not you. If you're not happy with the amount they get back for you from the bank then you can still proceed with court claim too.

You may receive different advice to your query as people have different experiences and opinions. Please use your own judgement in deciding whose advice to take.

 

If in doubt seek advice from a qualified insured professional. Any advice I have offered you is done so on an informal basis, without prejudice or liability.

 

If you think I have been helpful PLEASE click the scales

 

court bundles for dummies

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Only if they launch a formal complaint. The banks normally settle prior to this hence they don't charge the bank anything.

 

The man handleing my case said that they would be charged 360, surely all cases that they mediate count as a complaint. As said before they are a money making organisation so they aint going to do some work and then not get any money

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The man handleing my case said that they would be charged 360, surely all cases that they mediate count as a complaint. As said before they are a money making organisation so they aint going to do some work and then not get any money

 

They do not get any fee unless they raise a formal investigation. When they receive a complaint, they write to the bank and ask the bank for the file on that customers complaint, the bank then choose to settle rather than provide that file. At this point no formal investigation has begun and no charge is made.

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