Caught using mother’s 60+ Oyster card - 50+ uses - SJPN Court

[TiredDodo]

Thanks everyone for clearing everything up for me, I really appreciate it! 

I did already send off the letters to the court after I signed them (the letters asking if I am guilty and confirming the journeys were made by me), I included copies of the emails to TFL plus their replies. So the court should have this already. 

On the day of the court hearing I will bring the cash with me and try to find the prosecutor beforehand to apologise and ask to reconsider court.

I am really nervous about all this.

How can I identify the prosecutor and how do I go about approaching them?

Lastly, would it help my case to say that I'm not born in this country (moved to London 4 years ago)?

I changed the last paragraph of this email I want to send to TFL. Do I need to change anything else?

 

To whom it may concern,

With reference to my email of 26th March 2024 and your reply of 3rd April.

Once more, I would like to assure you that I will not engage in fare evasion again.

I am aware that the 60+ Oyster card is funded by TFL and is intended for specific eligible individuals. I acknowledge that I made an error by using the 60+ Oyster card. Since the incident, I have exclusively been using my own Oyster card for fare payments. Additionally, I have a railcard linked to my Oyster card enabling me to pay fares legitimately at a cheaper rate.

This ordeal has impacted my mental well-being, resulting in me constantly feeling stressed and anxious, as well as being unable to have a restful sleep, therefore affecting my concentration.

I sincerely hope that you will consider this matter out of court.

 

Yours sincerely,

[honeybee13]

To find the prosecutor on the day we normally recommend speaking to the court usher and asking them to point out the person.

I'm not clear what advantage you think it would be to say you moved to the UK four years ago. You're clearly an intelligent person, are you trying to say that you didn't understand the system?

Which version of the email are we on now? I thought you were sending it a couple of days ago.

Also, you start with 'To whom it may concern'. Didn't the TfL letter have a name at the bottom of it?

HB

[dx100uk]

On 07/04/2024 at 13:18, dx100uk said:

did you send a copy of your completed court forms to TfL with any of your begging emails? to show you've admitted and fessed up guilty as i advised before?

4th time ive advised/asked this now.

[honeybee13]

Could you update us please and answer dx's question? 

HB

[TiredDodo]

Hi dx, sorry maybe I wasn’t clear but I said multiple times that I sent off the documents to the court.

I have also forwarded a copy of it to TFL.

You’re right HB I’ll leave the fact I’m not from the UK out.

I sent off the previous email you checked off to TFL already.

Apologies for the confusion.

I appreciate all the help you have been providing for me

I will update once I get a response from TFL.

[TiredDodo]

Hi everyone.

 

Before I say anything, TFL finally responded to the email I sent last week:

Thank you for your email, we acknowledge the signed documents you have returned in preparation for your hearing.

We note that this matter is causing you some stress and anxiety, however this is not a reason for TfL to discontinue proceedings. It is not unusual for passengers that have been summonsed to court to experience these symptoms, and we do have some empathy with your concerns.

However, as previously stated, TfL do not accept out of court settlements, and you will have the opportunity at your hearing, to provide your mitigation to the court prior to a decision being reached by them on how they intend to deal with this matter (usually a fine).

I am sorry that this decision is not more favourable.

Yours sincerely

 

James Vallis

 

At least he sounds more sympathetic in this email…

Only one week to go until the court hearing and I am so so nervous.

I’ve prepared some questions and answers in preparation for what to say to the magistrate. It will help calm me down if I know roughly what to expect.

If you could give feedback on it that would be great. If you have anything to add please do let me know.

As far as I know the court hearing will happen in these stages:

Introduction and statement of facts

Pleading guilty for the journeys I made with my mother’s card

Penalty sentencing

Appeal (if charged with a criminal record)

Am I guilty?

Yes.

Why did I not pay the fare legally?

Last year there was a lot going on in my life and I was struggling financially so to relieve some of this I used my mother’s Oyster card. I know it’s not an excuse and it’s still wrong.

Why do I not accept a criminal record?

I really don’t want it to affect my chances of finding a job in the future. I will be the one earning money in my family so I am doing my best and studying hard to be able to get a good job. A criminal record would mean that regardless of how hard I’m working I won’t get the job I want after I graduate. This fills me with so much regret, sadness and disappointment in myself. I just want to be a good daughter for my mother because she’s already had to deal with many hardships in her life and I don’t want to make it any harder for her.

[honeybee13]

That's a shame but not unexpected. 

I'm not sure about your assumed  questions because I haven't been to court but I'm not sure about not accepting a criminal record. It could be a language thing but it isn't your choice unfortunately. 

HB

[jk2054]

Are you allowed to appeal if you plead guilty?

 

I know you appeal the sentence, but the criminal record formed from your guilt would surely remain?

 

I'm not sure if your able to appeal a crimianl record if you plead guilty are you?

Edited April 16 by jk2054

[honeybee13]

I don't think I've ever seen someone appeal a mags court decision on fare evasion, JK, but as you say in this case TiredDodo has pleaded guilty. It is possible to challenge, as below.

HB

Appeal a magistrates’ court decision: Overview - GOV.UK

WWW.GOV.UK

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How to challenge a decision by a magistrates' court. Including how to get a fine reviewed, if you did not know about your case, how to appeal to the...

 

[honeybee13]

dx explained the court day in post #40.

As he says, as you've pleaded guilty, it's more about your mitigation about why you did it and I believe your financial circumstances so they can decide on the level of any fine. That's the time to try and explain your financial and other positions if you have a criminal record.

HB

[jk2054]

He can challenge a criminal record even if he said he was guilty?

 

[dx100uk]

ive already CAREFULLY explained how it all works earlier.

what you will have to pay is already preset and detailed on the court forms/TfL stuff you already have.

you wont be asked any questions upon your financial means etc. thats not under debate .

you wont be asked upon any mitigating circumstances, you have pleaded guity which you always SHOULD. 

the ONLY 2 reasons you are attending is to:

1) after finding the TfL prosecutor... plead directly face to face before you go in to try and get an OOC (you can bring up or say anything/everything you like ...anything that might get them to agree)

2) if 1 fails...show your genuine remorse face to face to the magistrate, BRIEFLY mention how a criminal record would hinder your future

then hope they take pity on you and dont also record this on your file. 

PS its only declarable/shows there for one year anyway. regardless to what an employer might ask in job questionnaires past 1yrs you forget about it. they cannot see it even on enhanced DBS etc etc.

you should not latterly ever appeal a criminal record for this type (1yrs)  of 'offence'

its not worth it and if you lose said appeal it will cost your dear in terms of additional wages grabbing and court fees. and extends the time it shows if you lose too.

dx

 

[honeybee13]

Thank you dx.

To add one thing to what you said, a court fine can be paid in instalments unlike any OOC settlement with TfL which will need to be paid on the spot. We've always said to take cash along, I don't know if they have card payment facilities nowadays.

HB

[jk2054]

Also, if you have time and your particularly stressed you can always go down to magistrates court before your hearing so you can see how it all works.

Courts are OPEN to ANYONE

[dx100uk]

8 hours ago, honeybee13 said:

I don't know if they have card payment facilities nowadays.

TfL prosecutor will not carry a card terminal no. cash is better..however often give a number to ring to do so.

[TiredDodo]

Thank you so much for all the information you all have provided! I really appreciate it. 

dx I will definitely speak to the TFL prosecutor before the hearing if I can find them to beg for an OCC.

Just to update.

At the start of this journey I reached out to many organisations and advice centres but no one responded.

However, a few days ago I received an email back from We Are Advocate, that a barrister has volunteered to help me with my case. He said it is his job to get the best possible outcome for me.

He suggested I get some character references, which I have done and will be receiving over the course of the next few days. 

He also told me: 

Unfortunately, you WILL be left with a criminal record if you are convicted!

You do not stand convicted of the offence  YET.

You can only be convicted if

a) you plead guilty AT COURT or

b) you are FOUND guilty after a trial in open court.

So that answers one of our questions.

I have asked him lots of other questions and I'm just waiting for him to reply. 

So glad I will not be facing the court alone.

TD

[honeybee13]

If you mean your questions about guilt and convictions, we've been trying to tell you that...

It's good that you have some help.

HB

[dx100uk]

there are several threads here already whereby the judge in such cases only made an order to pay the required sum, the registering of a criminal record is at their discretion or not.

dx

 

[honeybee13]

Good luck today, TD. Please let us know how it goes.

HB

[TiredDodo]

Hi everyone!

Thanks for all your advice during this stressful journey.

Here’s a quick update of what went down today. 

The court hearing itself was very quick, lasted about 5 min. 
The magistrates got me to pay the amount I owe (the outstanding travel costs), as well as a fine and surcharge.

They reduced the court fees from £375 to £200. 

The magistrates told me the amount I need to pay but didn’t mention anything about a criminal record.

Does this mean they didn’t give me any or is it implied by giving me a fine?

Please let me know.

Thanks!!

TD 

[honeybee13]

Thank you for the update - at least it's all over now.

I'm a bit confused by what you say happened. What did your barrister think?

HB

[dx100uk]

On 21/03/2024 at 21:09, dx100uk said:

you will do well to get away with an OOC settlement here .

if the magistrate added anything else, bar the victim surcharge which is a std 'fee' everyone pays, then you have been fined as well.

if a magistrate imposes a separate fine in addition to the above then that is a criminal penalty, and thus is recorded on your record.

sorry but there you go.

i did warn you last month it would be a miracle if you didnt get a criminal record.

dx

 

[TiredDodo]

Thanks dx.

I asked the barrister, he said that I would have a mark on my record which will be wiped clean after one year from the date of the amount being paid in full. 
 

TD

[dx100uk]

correct as i've already told you that atleast twice here.

dx