Sold used faulty vehicle , brought from Cinch with BlackHorse finance.

[theberengersniper]

@Dolly-21 - My apologies for the slow reply, I'm trying to learn to keep the laptop shut over the weekend these days.

Could you clarify for me please where exactly this 'sludge' that's mentioned is accumulating? There is mention in the thread of it having been in the 'petrol cap' but also in the 'oil tank'. Can you describe what this sludge looked like and where precisely you can see it?

I don't think it's been mentioned thus far whether your car has a petrol or diesel engine. Can you tell us which it is? There is a phenomenon in diesel fuel called 'gelling', which can happen as the fuel approaches and surpasses zero degrees celcius. When gelling occurs, the liquid fuel literally begins to transition from an oily liquid into a much thicker gel, because the waxes in the fuel begin to transition from their liquid state towards a solid. It is possible this is the cause of the sludge you're referring to, but as I say, that is dependent on your car being a diesel in the first place, and the sludge appearing in the fuel filler neck.

Another more general observation I'll make at this stage is in regard to the diagnostic report you've had done. I'm sorry to say so, but that car has a lot of things wrong with it - 15 active (as in, they're happening right now and every time you run the car), and 13 sporadic faults. Many of them are to do with what we'd normally call "body control faults"; things like instrument cluster issues, central locking issues, drivers' door electrics etc, but some of them are directly engine-related, such as your engine air intake having a leak (affecting the smooth running of the engine), and your engine idle speed being too high. Again, depending whether your car is petrol or diesel, some of those faults could have some real-world implications for you in the future. As an example, the idle speed too high could easily contribute to an MOT failure, either through the engine speed itself, or because the test equipment will be attempting to read idle emissions. With an idle speed too high, the equipment will be measuring emissions at what it thinks is tick-over engine speed, but is in fact some value higher than that, leading to increased emissions.

I hate to sound so pessimistic, but if you intend to keep that car there is a lot that needs investigated and fixed. It's quite surprising for a car with such low mileage.

@BankFodder - Thank you for the tag and opportunity to comment. If I can be of further assistance now or in future don't hesitate to tag again.

[BankFodder]

10 minutes ago, theberengersniper said:

 

@BankFodder - Thank you for the tag and opportunity to comment. If I can be of further assistance now or in future don't hesitate to tag again.

You had better be careful what you wish for

[Dolly-21]

@theberengersniper

No problem, Thank you so very much I really appreciate all the help and advice you have given me.

we noticed dried mud/sludge inside the “petrol cap”

The engine idle speed we was told was due to oil separator needing replacing, could this be the reason it felt as though the car was jumping off fast in first gear.

The car is petrol 

The vehicle came with passed MOT February 2023 sold to myself in May 2023 next MOT due February 2024

i was told by the seat garage the engine air system intake leak was due to the oil separator and this is down to my wear and tear of the vehicle and this would have been showing on the dash at the point of sale and not something that could of been developing.

@BankFodder

good afternoon 

I have forwarded the template letter you kindly posted.

i also have called to speak with the RAC today regarding a independent inspection.

it was explained they would be unable to say if any issues were there previously before the point of sale, and also their reports won’t stand legally in court.

i am yet to call Halfords to see if they are able to offer a MOT

[dx100uk]

i really cant see 6mts of ownership and 5k miles use causing this sludge issue, obv there when you bought it. not Wear & Tear!!

dx

 

[theberengersniper]

9 minutes ago, Dolly-21 said:

The engine idle speed we was told was due to oil separator needing replacing, could this be the reason it felt as though the car was jumping off fast in first gear.

This is possible. When the oil separator begins to fail, it no longer effectively separates all the oil from the gas being recirculated from the crankcase back into the intake manifold. This whole process happens ironically for emissions reduction reasons and is designed to ensure all of the oxygen and particulates that would, in an older engine, be exhausted directly to atmosphere, are instead sent back into the manifold, effectively for a second go at combustion.

When the oil separator (which is a generic term, it's more commonly known as a pollution control valve) starts to fail, the oil that should be separated out and directed back to your oil sump, is instead taken in through the intake manifold. What that does is effectively make the intake mixture richer, because not only do you have the fuel your engine is expecting to burn, but you also have a quantity of oil, which is itself combustible. That extra combustible mixture causes your engine idle speed to run high.

With regard to your car jumping off quickly in first gear, yes it will be because of this issue. Think about it based on what I've said above; your engine is running faster than it should be. The effect is exactly the same as if you manually pressed the accelerator harder. If you're expecting to pull away with, say 1700rpm on the engine, in reality you could have something closer to 2500 as an example. That's a lot of extra torque you weren't expecting to have.

The sludge issue is still puzzling me. If it's still there, perhaps you might upload a photograph for us to see?

[Dolly-21]

@dx100uk

Thank you for your reply.

Blackhorse stated that Cinch concluded that I did not report the sludge issues directly to them after the vehicle was delivered and as such this is not something that they would look to cover,  I definitely did report this along with cosmetic issues not advertised.

i was told regarding worn tyres, SEAT explained to Blackhorse that these would be down to my wear and tear.

Due to the oil separator I believe causing the check oil light, EPC light on dashboard and Engine light to come on, this has been put down to No evidence to show these issues being present or developing at the point of sale.

 

@theberengersniper

Yes that was one of the first issues I noticed with the vehicle and also reported this to them.

That all makes great sense thank you for taking the time to explain this to me

The vehicle also had two recalls I came across after delivery.

1) Safety recall= this is what states.

At Low Engine speeds The engine produces insufficient Torque on 09/09/19

when i enquires I was told be SEAT this was fixed in august 2020 but would this be the same sort of issue? 

Thank you 

 

@theberengersniper

Yes this dried mud/sludge is still in petrol cap I will upload a picture of this shortly.

Thanks again 

[BankFodder]

Don't worry about defects not been apparent at the point of sale. The whole test is that the cars could be of satisfactory quality and it has to remain that way for a reasonable period of time.

Let's get the inspections.

I'm not sure that an MOT from Halford's is sufficiently rigourous. It would be more interesting to go to some private specialist garage where you can be certain that they have integrity but also that they are not simply ticking off checkboxes.

You need somebody with some serious understanding and you want them to carry out a rigourous and critical MOT

[Dolly-21]

@theberengersniper

 

sorry for the delay I am not that good with phones so had to work out how to turn the photo into a PDF in order to show you. My apologies 

Now this is stating the photo is to big I am unsure how to upload a picture 

[Dolly-21]

Photo.pdf

[BankFodder]

I have a feeling that @theberengersniper wants to see the inside of the cap with all the sludge rather than simply the outside of it.

[theberengersniper]

@Dolly-21 - thanks, but yes, as Bankfodder points out, it's the sludge itself I need to see.

In fact, if you're able to take another photo and you feel it doesn't show up very well, I would suggest donning a pair of rubber gloves and retrieving some of the sludge and then wiping it on a piece of white printer paper. We really need to see the colour and consistency of it. 

[Dolly-21]

@BankFodder

Good evening 

I contacted a garage whom have book the vehicle in for a health check on Friday, he questioned as to why I want or need a health check and is there anything wrong with the vehicle why do I want it looked over, now every call I’ve made in regards to these checks I am being told either they are unable to say if faults were there before or not and reports are unable to stand legally

Advised by the AA and also RAC and another independent MOT test centre.

I also received a reply from Blackhorse in regards to the letter above I will upload this now and also the other 

Many Thanks again for all your help and advice 

 

Safari - 14 Nov 2023 at 7:12 pm.pdf

[BankFodder]

Thank you.

Blackhorse are completely wrong. Not only must the vehicle be of satisfactory quality at the point of sale but it must remain in a satisfactory condition for a reasonable period of time – depending on the price, nature of the goods, any descriptions or claims made about the goods et cetera.
The consumer rights act specifically refers to "durability" as a test of satisfactory quality. This has always been taken to refer to the fact that the item must remain in a satisfactory condition for a reasonable period of time.


On that basis you're not obliged to prove that the vehicle had those defects at the point of sale. If it hasn't remained satisfactory for a reasonable period of time then you have a case.

[Dolly-21]

My apologies for some reason did not appear to get in the full letter.

ok so shall I leave off the independent inspection now.

Many Thanks again 

Safari - 14 Nov 2023 at 7:28 pm.pdf

[BankFodder]

This thread has gone on for a fair amount of time and it's rather a patchwork, mainly I'm sorry to say because we have had difficulty understanding the entire story from you.
The fact that Blackhorse even admit that they have a duty not only to consider defects present at the point of sale but also to consider whether those defects were developing suggest very strongly that they understand that satisfactory quality is an ongoing matter.

I have a feeling that we have asked you several times to get independent inspections – and you have now posted suggesting that you won't do that.

You will absolutely need at least one independent inspection which will list out all of the defects that you are complaining about and also give quotations for the repairing of those defects.

If you won't do this then I don't think there is much more that can be done.

We've also suggested that you get an MOT.

 

[Dolly-21]

This is also one of the acknowledgments I received from cinch a few days after vehicle delivery I did also forward these emails from Cinch to Blackhorse.

 

Photo.pdf

[Dolly-21]

The vehicle is book in with one garage this Friday! I have no issues booking the vehicle in for independent inspections which I have booked one already and I have called around a few places today with no luck but will try a few more tomorrow 

[BankFodder]

Can you remind me, where you are advised not to drive the vehicle? Who is it who advised you and for how long have you been without the use of it?

[Dolly-21]

Yes that’s right I was advised not to drive the vehicle from 08/09/23

Cinch advised this when I called to report the issues with the oil light/EPC light and Engine light 

In total 6 weeks without being able to drive the vehicle.

08-9-23 until 20-10-23

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Dolly-21

[BankFodder]

Thank you. Independent inspections please as quickly as possible. Also quotations for the work. MOT.

If you manage to independent quotations and that will be excellent but one is a good start.

[BankFodder]

Incidentally, do you have this do not drive instruction in writing?

[Dolly-21]

Thank you very much

most definitely that will be the first thing I do tomorrow morning, is to call around to book an MOT.
as mentioned I have been able to book in with a independent Garage that will have a look on Friday morning is there anything I should be asking them pacifically for , I will also ask for the quotations of any work needed.

 

Unfortunately nothing in writing from them only an acknowledgment of my call regarding the issues, I was then asked via email to forward to them the Halfords report which I did straight away.

Thank you

 

[BankFodder]

In terms of the inspection, tell them that you want a rigourous and critical inspection – no favours.

So you had nothing in writing telling you not to drive it.

In that case you should send them the following message immediately

 

Quote

Dear XXX

Reference number XXX/vehicle registration XXX

On XXX date you told me over the telephone that I should not be driving the vehicle because of the XXX (describe the fault).

It is now six weeks and I have not been able to drive the vehicle.

Please can you confirm to me that I should not be driving it and what steps I should take before I can start driving again.

Yours sincerely

send this email immediately

I hadn't understood that you didn't have this instruction in writing so it is easily deniable by them.

We need to get some kind of acknowledgement that they did give you this instruction.

Send email.

Didn't they tell you anything else about not driving it?

 

[Dolly-21]

Thank you I will ask them for that information 
No nothing in writing cinch said they would try to organise a courtesy car but is not something they do when the warranty is has expired, that is the only email I have from them regarding this.

In regards to the vehicle oil light the EPC light and Engine management light coming up on dashboard 8-9-23 / entertainment issues- The vehicle went into Seat garage on 20-10-23 where I was told these problems are corrected new oil seperator fitted/software update, but the entertainment system issues seem to still be continuing 

in regards to electrical issues this was not something that was asked to be look at despite me reporting this is May so electrical issues also continue 

sorry for long reply 

[BankFodder]

This is getting a bit confusing.

You said that there are some defects and now you say that they have been fixed.

It is difficult to keep track of what on earth is going on here.

We need a list of the defects as they exist now.

We need a rigourous independent inspection of the car as it is now so that we have a list of the defects which exist now.

Defects which existed previously and which have now been fixed are no longer relevant and they are not part of the story any more.