Who's responsible for a rise in the water table?

[sunshine star]

This is a strange one but thought I'd see if anyone was privvy to this info.

 

Basically, bought a house in a seaside area in Feb this year. (Lived in the city beforethat so never lived in this region). Got a mortgage valuation which didn't show anything up but after 10 years exp in property decided the gable end needed checking and got a structural survery privately. Neither reports stated that the water table could be an issue - in fact neither report mentioned the water table even though it's rising is common place here.

 

10 months on and many renovations later we have what we thought was a flood in the cellar. couldn't work out where it was coming from but found out from a friend it's due to the water table (water levels in the ground rise). the water has come through the concrete (which was already laid) to about 5" ruining 40sqm of marble (cheap on ebay!!), tools etc. we're been here 10 months and had many viewings as far back as 15 months ago and nothing like this has happened before.

 

Anyway due to the flooding called the insurance who told us it;s a natural thing so not covered unless the dampproof membrane has failed - we don't know if we have one and to find out we need to dig through the concrete. In other words the insurance wont help.

 

I appreciate the law prevades on caveat empetor when buying a house but should the water table rising not have been mentioned somewhere along the lines to us (I can bore anyone for hours about structural capacities & calculations, cavity walls etc but this doesn't factor in my knowledge!).

 

We're estimating around £1k in damage plus £5k to get the membrane re/fitted. It's a lot of money to pay out when we haven't been made aware of such a thing.

 

One thing that may be helpful is there are 3 rooms in the cellar - the hall way with stairs leading down, a back and front room. Only the hallway and back room have flooded - the front room is dry so to speak.

 

Advice/knowledge would be truly appreciated!

[Jimbo44]

I appreciate the surveyor's report you commissioned as a result of your concerns about the gable-end will probably be hedged around with "if's", "and's" and "maybe's" ,(not to mention "Terms and Conditions" too).

 

Is the part of the cellar affected by the rising water table beneath that gable-end? Is there a possible connection between the two? If so, then maybe you could consider approaching the surveyor?

 

I would have thought that a professionally qualified surveyor, practicing in an area where, as you say, the water-table is know to rise and fall, would have at least mentioned this in the survey, if only as a part of a general introduction to the survey.

 

However, as a straight answer to the question posed in the thread title, I suspect it is a 'natural phenomenon' that can occur almost anywhere.

[sunshine star]

no, cellar is only at the front of the house. problem for the savings account me thinks!

thanks for your reply

[JonCris]

tedsbird. Before my commenting can you say who laid the concrete floor in the cellar

[sunshine star]

hiya, it was laid before we purchased the property.

[JonCris]

Do you know who did it. I'm amazed that a builder would lay concrete in a basement without laying a membrane.

 

Do you have any more info you can share?

[dax]

quote: Neither reports stated that the water table could be an issue - in fact neither report mentioned the water table even though it's rising is common place here.

 

You seem to be aware that this was a potential risk, by mentioning the problem is common. Therefore, dont they have zones of risk to flooding? In which case surely the estate agents should have mentioned something about it. Surveyors though are supposed to recognise such things and point them out to you, as they have special instruments to measure damp etc and presumably there would have been evidence that this has occured before. Id enquire at the local council to see what they know about the problem in the area and ask the neighbours if they have the same dilema. They may have had to deal with the same problem and offer you some advice.

[sunshine star]

Joncris - unfortunately the property was left in a will and then sold to us and the beneficiary had stripped the house bare and left the sale up to the solicitor therefore leaving no details of previous guarantees, work done etc behind.

 

The only other info I have is that the adjoining property's cellar is also flooded. The nearer the sea the worse it get apparently. 1/2 mile down the road a friend of ours has their cellar rising to 2ft in water sometimes. I didn't specifically raise a query on this with either the estate agent or my structural surveyor as I didn't know about such things! Only from whining at friends about it did I find out it happens to a lot of properties here.

Damp was located in the cellar and a damp course in the walls was iinstalled but nothing was mentioned with regards to the floor or any impending flooding!!

[JonCris]

Are the solicitors & or surveyors you used local? Also how where you introduced to them.

[sunshine star]

hiya, both the solicitor and the structural surveryor have worked for me for years on various properties. I've known them professionally for a long time but neither of them are local. They're both from the city where i used to live.

[JonCris]

tedsbird are you a property developer. If so it just became harder in that you would be a person expected to have special knowledge. Not having a survey is/was a big mistake. Having said that the roof repair should be guaranteed & if the work was not carried out properly you will have claim for all damages against the agents or whoever employed them.

 

Also you need to see a copy of the questionair your solicitor sent to the vendors representatives to see if it enquired about the water table &/or flooding.

 

In fact ask for the whole file as it belongs to you assuming you have paid the fees that is.

[sunshine star]

no, not a devleoper but I have owned quite a few houses and worked in an estate agents. I did have surverys, both via the mortgage company and my own structural survey. there isn't any damage to the roof nor has it been repaired. the gable wall was tied in and anchor bolted but nothing to the roof.

i've checked all the paperwork and the water table isn't mentioned at all neither is flooding.

 

I just wondered really if anyone could lay this at the insurance company or the council! or even better somewhere where i could get a grant or something cheap!

[JonCris]

tedsbird

In that case if it is & always has been a common problem in the area you may have a claim against your conveyencer as they should have asked the question when the list was submitted to the vendors.

 

The floor membrane should have been extended part way up the walls. Also I think you need to revisit you insurance policy as to my thinking you are covered.

[sunshine star]

will do, thanks for your advice

[dax]

what age is the property out of interest?

[sunshine star]

sadly enough we've no idea. the deeds/paperwork etc only go back as far as 1937 and we've had no luck in the past year finding out the exact date but it's probably early 1900's judging by the style and surrounding properties.

[dax]

Are you by any chance in a conservtion area? The National trust may be able to help if so and perhaps offer grants.....its not an impossibilty.....

[buzby]

My last property was just 400 metres from the shore, and the water table was not a problem within the house (no rooms sub-ground) however there was sand under the floors. We dug 1 5ft hole and put in a linear damp detector. We could easily track the twice daily tides as the water table rose and fell in sync. (By around 6 inches). There is every chance the membrane (if fitted) has ruptured, but finding who to blame will be impossible. Do remember, if you claim on insurance, they will flag this fact to the Insurance Hunter database, making any switch of provider difficult, as full disclosure will be required.

[sunshine star]

Thank you all for your responses.

 

We;ve drilled a 5" hole through the concrete and there is a plastic membrane with sand underneath (and some water too!). Called the insurance yesterday who said we need to get a professional out (but couldn't tell us which professional) who could investigate and explain why the membrane had ruptured to ascertain whether the reason would be an insured peril!!!!!

Would I get a dampproofing company out who tank cellars as part of their business or what? I'm insured with morethan who are not more than helpful. They wouldn't advise who to get which could result in them saying they're not happy with the report and they wouldn't say what was or wasn't an 'insured peril' either. They asked me to get a report faxed over and they would take it from there. Never mind all the damaged stuff. They also mentioned that either way I would have to have this resolved as the mortgage company would insist it is sorted out - which is fair enough.

 

I'm not overly concerned regarding switching insurance companies as once the problem is rectified it shouldn't pose an issue in future so long as the work is guaranteed.

 

We're not in a conservation area either.

[Dave L]

ACT OF GOD

been there wore the teeshirt.

I was renovating an old TSB Bank into flats in Bootle,

The basement "Vault" was prone to flooding during high tide.

So TSB (then) had membranes fitted all around basement (TANKED) correct terminology,

Now a row of terraced house`s were connected at the uphill side of this old bank,and because of the TANKING the building became a form of DAM.

and being the bottom of a hill,a good DAM.

So after removing some masonry to inspect after neighbours had complained to enviromental Health, I seen that water was building up to approx 5ft ,then backflooding into next doors basement,and so on along the row.

So Env Health thought they had a case (against TSB) who had works done 10 years prev, but alas (water was saline) mersey estuary,on certain high tides, with good rain "water table overflowed" and judge bounced it,

So 1 of the neighbours tried sueing surveyer only been there 2 years, and as its not a persistant common fault and wasn`t visable at time of survey

the judge bounced that claim as well along the ACT OF GOD LINES

and building propertys in underground streambeds the builder might be at fault (though 100 years ago)

i doubt the builders still alive .

 

ps you will probally find the water is either seeping through brickwork, or backing up the drains "if as you say a membranes fitted to concrete" though this core hole will certainly be a future problem now", being so near to the beach i`d opt for drains.

 

and are you sure no pits "landfill sites ,have been filled in in the last 5 years or so, as ive seen this here in M\Cr,an old claypit filled

in,water table rose 12ins in 2 years.

[sunshine star]

Dave, that wasn't that far from me! I used to work in the club opposite those flats! I'm about 1/2 mile from Southport - in Birkdale.

 

There is a soak away drain about a metre from where the flooding starts. But these were all cleaned up when we added to it and had the gable end re-done and an extension built. I don't fancy the possibility of having them inspected to see if there is a break as not only will it cost a fortune but we've had the area all block paved and I know the insurance will not cover that due to previous experience.

 

My main problem now is getting this sorted on the insurance. I pay enough for it each year and I've got accidental and every other cover available! They haven't sent any t&c's to state what is covered and what isn't covered for the buildings - just the schedule.

 

I;m thinking of getting the structural surveyor back to see what he thinks. i doubt he would have been aware of it as the cellar has been dry for the 10 months or so we've had it and the 4 months it took to purchase the property it was also dry.

Just thinking tho, we;ve had a damp course to the brick work done and a full damp inspection - had it been long standing wouldn't it have shown up then? Could the membrane have ruptured do to the extentive amount of building work we've had done? In which case would the insurance pay out?

This is one complicated scenario!!

[Dave L]

The DPC Co survey"should have shown dampness in bricks" as being a cellar though unless tanked there will always be damp present.

The floor/membrane failure could probally be cured by asphalt flooring

(cheapest option). as for 10months with no visable sign of damp,

The bank i worked on had nearly 10 years of no sign.after tanking.

Its took that long for bricks to perish enough to become absorbant,or

as i more likely suspect a drain failure, (its the sand thats got me thinking this), sands waterproof so when mixed with water, it doesn`t absord it,

it becomes it. and flows away.now with drains resting on this and the void created by the sand erosion under drains (they tend to break) and being a cellar drain (below ground level) water tends to make its way back up the drain.

If i was you i`d aquire a 4in drain bung (to seal OFF DRAINgrid top

Get 1 from hire shop,and a sump pump (probally cost you £50 ish for weekend) Plug drain with bung,pump water to an external drain (these will be on a different line and level)after level has gone to bore hole, water will flow from brickwork for a few hours (if this slows down) take pump back

and keep bung :o ,as its the drain, say you cant find it and it`ll cost you about a tenner.

and dont spill water down there as youve nolonger got a drain.

[JonCris]

tedsbird

 

The 'Insured Peril' refers to all of the circumstances as listed in the policy terms.

 

If it includes flooding then you should be covered. Also if your insurer want's you to have the cellar checked then they should pay for it. Speak to your solicitor

[sunshine star]

Apparently not! i spoke to the insurers today who said they can reasonably request further information to ascertain if the claim is an insured peril. Their request for further information is in the form of a report from a professional in that trade. Even if the water came from a drain then they would expect me to call in the enironmental health who would then advise if it came from a soak away or from the main drains. This is highly unlikely as we're having really bad rain at the moment and the cellar isn't getting worse and we've got new main drains.

A friend in the trade called today and said this is either the water table rising above the membrane and penetrating the bricks/cement or when we;ve had work done they've disturbed the membrane. Either way we're not covered on the insurance!! I;ll need to make a few more bank charge claims to pay for this one!!!

[JonCris]

They are entitled to ask questions but they are not entitled to ask you to go to the costly expense of finding the cause. They should be doing that themselves or agreeing to meet your agreed costs before making a decision.

 

As this appears to be a costly matter & will affect any resale see a lawyer NOW!