RedDeath v LloydsTSB

[elsinore]

Hi Red.

 

Your tenacity does you credit. I also like the unruffled way you have taken the flak.

 

With regard to the opinions cast for and against your potential claim, I find I have a foot in both camps. I agree with Bong and Glenn insofar as I see no reason why contractual interest should not be claimed, per se.

But I also agree with Gary, Caro, Jonny2bad and Photoman who urge you to think again before you try for damages.

 

My own analogy is that you are in the starting blocks, about to run the Olympic 110 metres final, having never run a hurdle race before and you only have one leg!. Your potential claim has everything in it including the kitchen sink and I think that’s part of your problem. Charges, LA, CI, CL, damages. costs, default removal, Scotland, fast track.

 

I’m with Tanz regarding your claim strategy. Why not make it easier (not easy) for yourself by just claiming a refund of your charges plus contractual interest? Even then you will have to keep your nerve. If LTSB offer you your charges + 8% you have to decline the offer. To accept as part payment would mean that you would have to continue your claim on the basis of CI only, a difficult prospect. But to decline would means that if LTSB want to challenge the CI element of your claim, they must do so in court and thus risk disclosure, not something they have so far been willing to do. That way you stand a sporting chance of collecting £12k+.

 

While that claim is progressing you can continue to research the possibilities of claiming damages. I regard consequential loss and damages as two separate elements. CL is quantifiable and something you, in your professional capacity, should find relatively easy to calculate. Damages, in the context of deterioration of well-being, health, lifestyle, career, confidence, self-respect, defamation, etc. that’s altogether more difficult and something which I think only a judge can pronounce upon, although you would no doubt want to inform him of the sum you have in mind. Thus, you might then make a separate claim, well down the line, for specific CL together with damages. That way, even if you are not awarded damages, you might be successful with CL.

 

I was going to comment on your draft PoC but, as you have withdrawn them, I think that would not be fair. However, I have saved them so, if you think further comment will help, just let me know.

 

Els:)

[Glenn UK]

Photoman

 

I have to take issue with you on a couple of points

 

Originally Posted by RedDeath

Thanks for the advice photoman, I do appreciate it.

 

As usual I will research every bit of advice offered. The way I see it with regards to cost, the worse I could expect would be around £7,500 which I would cover with my actual claim for the fees and 8%. That way I end up back at step 1, but 30 years from know I'll know that I fought for what I believe in and that probably means the most to me. MetallicA teaches you that!

Red, if you lose, you lose EVERYTHING not just the damages..... the court wont award you just the charges and just dismiss the damages aspect... and you will still then have to cover the costs and their legal fees (which could be tens of thousands), and wont get a bean from your claim to cover any of it !!

 

Whilst there is no doubt in my mind that if the court sees the claim as vexatious or seriously flawed fro a legal viewpoint then they could indeed strike the whole claim out. however, i do not see the striking out of the whole claim as a foregone conclusion and would very much be based on how the claim was put together and presented. its my view that the damages element of the claim could well be struck out but the remaining elements of the claim be allowed to proceed and the same way that has happened in some cases to charges older than six years.

 

 

I understand this now moves into an area where not many people can or are willing to advise me on, and I fully accept that. I am pushing the boundaries of what has been deemed acceptable. Of course I won't pick my legal representation from the back of a newspaper, that is what google is for, but by day I am a pricing analyst consultant for a major blue chip company, so playing around with numbers, discussing contracts is my bread and butter. Quantifying the precise damages is going to take some work, but I have loads of time and I won't fire my first shot (or raise the pot in poker terms) until I am confident enough in what I have.

 

Taking it all the way into a court though is new territory for me and I will see how far I can go by myself before I seek legal advice. At this stage I think that I have the capability to go it alone, but I still have loads of time and if I don't feel the vibes then I am not going to go for it.

No legal firm will pick up a case half way through. They cannot take the risk of losing based upon your own previous errors.

 

My odds at getting my fees are 100%

Odds of CI maybe as much as 95%

Damages well, i think its 50%

 

I don't think I need to convince the judge 100%, as long as I can convince him 60% that could be enough for a win. In fairness though, I don't feel that my argument is flawed. Maybe rough at the moment, but

still simple. I dispute the damages were caused by the charges (enter the maths bit) and I can plot those numbers across 5 years. If you (the bank) disagree with how I calculated the damages then please inform me what the real costs were. You can not accurately calculate damages without disclosing costs.

 

If I lose because I calculated my charges wrong then fair enough, but if that means that they also have to stand in a court of law and publicly disclose their charges then I still walk away a winner.

They will have your case thrown out of court based upon your damages claim even before you even get into a court. That way they can avoid the pressure you may feel you can exert by pushing for disclosure. I seriously doubt this, they would have to show the whole claim had no merit and if the claimant decided that he couldn't beat their arguments then there would be nothing to stop him acceding to a request to strike out that portion of the claim or submitting an amendment to the claim in light of the defendants submission

 

PM

if you or anyone else has the evidence which points to this being the fact i.e. that the whole claim would be struck out on the basis that one element was flawed, then can you present it.

 

This argument i.e. that claims would be struck out in their entirety, has also been presented on threads re CI and as far as I can tell there is no basis for it.

 

As we know the Judges are all powerful in their own court, well at least until someone appeals a decision, and they could, should they so choose, strike a whole claim out on a whim. This IMHO is unlikely if the claim is genuine and well prepared.

 

Be happy to change my view if someone can present some evidence that adding CI or Damages to a claim would get it struck out simply on that basis alone.

Oh nearly forgot, I think Dayglos claim which included damages and was heard in its entirety (and incidentally the judge commented on how well it was presented and prepared even though she found against him).

JMHO

 

 

Glenn

[GLADSTANES]

RedDeath.

 

I can only admire your determination.

 

Please take the very best legal advice available.

 

As a pricing analyst you will know that you must protect your downside.

 

Using the gambling analogy again- "every hand's a winner and every hand's a loser". Make sure they think you are holding a royal flush and watch them fold at the last minute.

 

All the very best and "unleash the dogs of war" but keep your emotions in check.

 

Sincerely Gladstanes

[RedDeath]

Thank you all again for the valuable advice. In the cold light of day light I still think I have a valid point to claim for damages.

 

They were my only bank, I put all of my money in the bank and they regularly & knowingly took out way more than what they should have. I feel I should be entitled to damages for this.

 

I feel I should be able to claim in England, because by telling me I can only claim in Scotland they are putting unfair terms in my agreement. I am after all the consumer I should be looked out for and I live in the UK.

 

CI, again I feel I am entitled to CI. If I pay 29.8% interest on unauthorised borrowing, then so should them. If they had charged 10% for this I would have chased that figure.

 

Damages..surely anyone's standard of life must be affected if £6000 disappears from their account. Or am I wrong? Am I missing the point when I say that they took a major chunk out of my account over the years, knowingly did so despite what was in the contract? I can see the damages they caused me and if at the end of the day they cost me thousands of pounds in charges, well, then I get on a plane and go to Australia. I'm young, I've got a brain I'll set up a new life. But one thing I am not going to do is lie down to them. But why should that happen when I have done nothing wrong? I didn't steal, nor did I lie, I ran my finances in a dubious matter, but I never stole or lied about it.

 

I would be happier with getting 12k in charges, made up of 8% interest & damages than the charges and CI. At least they way they are paying me for the standard of life they forced on me.

 

The damages exist! I have lived with them. Had they only taken the £3 a time they were entitled to then every month/year I would have had more money and I would have paid all my bills on time.

 

Yes, damages are dangerous, for them. If I ask for £100000 in damages the judge has every right in the world to strike it out. If however I make a valid, well-constructed and logical arguement then it is his duty to investigate that and, as long as I do so, it is then up to the banks to disclose their costs.

 

Els...totally unruffled. You got to know when to hold them, know when to fold em, know when to walk away, know when to run.

[bill-k]

...i meant to click the scale....!

Aaaa, so it was YOU who reported a bad post then, was it, Red !!!

No worries - I've got a whole thread-load of them, now !! Water off a duck's back.

 

Just kidding - seriously thanks for the click. I have a history of pressing all the wrong buttons in my life, too. That Abe Lincoln maxim "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." is really about the abuse or mis-use of power in the hands of those who will not or cannot handle it properly. It is in my sig. aimed at all forms of maladministration and abuse of position. If you are putting the banks in this position, then they have clearly failed the test, I agree.

 

However, it occurs to me that you are putting yourself in the position of power, and seeing this as a test of your character. By all means do so, here, Red. But be aware that one of the tests has to be whether or not you understand the source of your power, and its' limitations.

 

I believe you may be considering that your power is the power of the Courts. Remember, then - that power is shared by the banks, and so, too, is the source of that power - the Law. The banks are pass-masters in the dark art of abusing and mis-using that power. Part of that skill will be their ability to show that you are doing that yourself, and not they.

 

So please remember that you have that power, but it is not yours alone, and the test of your character will be in how you use it against another who shares that power, but has infinitely more experience of employing it.

 

Noooooooo - please don't click me !!! I don't want to risk another "bad post" report - aaaaaaaargh !!!!

[RedDeath]

Yeah, that was some seriously bad advice, she was under 16!!!

Nah only kidding...

 

The part that clicked was if you want to test a man's character.

 

Major decision time for me, loads of cash and values at stake and i am up against a big faceless company with an army of solicitors! The power comes from the power of the people, all the members on this site that post their ideas and advice, and the whole "are you crazy" part.

 

This was the thread that first put the idea into my head:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/rbs-bos-successes/49470-contractual-interest-details-case.html

 

I particularly like the style of the poc and its something that i am using as my main template.

 

The parts that i find intersting are paragraphs 57-59. In 59 in particular

 

Accordingly, the Claimant asks the court to grant aggravated and exemplary damages as detailed in Paragraphs 64(f) and 64(g) of these particulars.

 

Good way to lead to the money part and finally paragraph 64 a-b-c-d-e where he outlines the indivdiual charges. Something down the lines of:

 

a> the claims

b> the interest breaking it down into subsections either 29.8% or 8%

c>damages

d>costs

 

This seems like a really good way of outlining a claim. Particularly as he asks for individual "mini" claims if you can see my point. I.e "I want 29.8% (because of how it is explained) if not then give me 8% (cause I am due it)."

An extra section for damages again same modus operandi give me the damages as detailed or give me nothing.

 

So my question to the "power of the people" is this:

Would this still allow me to get at least some if not all the goodies?

 

I.e yes to claims, yes to CI and no to damages? Bit like getting six numbers on the lottery and missing the bonus ball?

 

Also, would this still leave me open to costs. Would that be enough to say that each party would cover their own costs? Can i add these kind of paragraphs into the claim form? Something down the lines of?

 

The Claimant asks that as he is a single litigant and despite months of attempted communications with the Defendant they have still not replied to any of his letters. (1 prelim, 1 LBA, 1 Final notice with extra 14 days, 1 Futrther final notice with ammended charges). That in the event of loss the Defendant is not allowed costs as this was the Claimants only method of disputing the charges after trying everything under the sun to get them to talk to him?

 

Just a thought...any potential?

 

Pro's: get out of jail free card.

Con's: my claim does not look so "confident" and professional. Bad etiquette maybe....

[RedDeath]

Glenn, as always thanks!

 

Originally Posted by RedDeath

Thanks for the advice photoman, I do appreciate it.

 

As usual I will research every bit of advice offered. The way I see it with regards to cost, the worse I could expect would be around £7,500 which I would cover with my actual claim for the fees and 8%. That way I end up back at step 1, but 30 years from know I'll know that I fought for what I believe in and that probably means the most to me. MetallicA teaches you that!

Red, if you lose, you lose EVERYTHING not just the damages..... the court wont award you just the charges and just dismiss the damages aspect... and you will still then have to cover the costs and their legal fees (which could be tens of thousands), and wont get a bean from your claim to cover any of it !!

 

Whilst there is no doubt in my mind that if the court sees the claim as vexatious or seriously flawed fro a legal viewpoint then they could indeed strike the whole claim out. however, i do not see the striking out of the whole claim as a foregone conclusion and would very much be based on how the claim was put together and presented. its my view that the damages element of the claim could well be struck out but the remaining elements of the claim be allowed to proceed and the same way that has happened in some cases to charges older than six years.

 

Also this does not preclude me from claiming again at a later stage? Case gets thrown out, i try again just for charges and 8% scenario.

 

 

 

Taking it all the way into a court though is new territory for me and I will see how far I can go by myself before I seek legal advice. At this stage I think that I have the capability to go it alone, but I still have loads of time and if I don't feel the vibes then I am not going to go for it.

 

No legal firm will pick up a case half way through. They cannot take the risk of losing based upon your own previous errors.

 

Thats cool, I got the best representatives...CAG FORUM members!

 

If I lose because I calculated my charges wrong then fair enough, but if that means that they also have to stand in a court of law and publicly disclose their charges then I still walk away a winner.

 

They will have your case thrown out of court based upon your damages claim even before you even get into a court. That way they can avoid the pressure you may feel you can exert by pushing for disclosure.

 

I seriously doubt this, they would have to show the whole claim had no merit and if the claimant decided that he couldn't beat their arguments then there would be nothing to stop him acceding to a request to strike out that portion of the claim or submitting an amendment to the claim in

light of the defendants submission

 

So if I get this right...I go ahead and claim damages, they submit a defence asking for it to strike out. If I can not counter-argue their defence then I can still go on and ask for charges & CI and still not have them awarded costs.

 

Just to push the boundries a little further (he he) at that point I can ask for my own costs at £9.xx an hour? Would 120 hours be too many? The way i look at it if they could charge £7500 then I can certainly add some juice on this one as well.

 

 

 

[photoman]

Red

I believe you may be considering that your power is the power of the Courts. Remember, then - that power is shared by the banks, and so, too, is the source of that power - the Law. The banks are pass-masters in the dark art of abusing and mis-using that power. Part of that skill will be their ability to show that you are doing that yourself, and not they.

 

So please remember that you have that power, but it is not yours alone, and the test of your character will be in how you use it against another who shares that power, but has infinitely more experience of employing it.

 

 

Take heed of some wise words, from an experienced member.

[bill-k]

Yes, that was Justwon's claim, wasn't it ? I was surprised that it didn't get picked up and used as a template for future CI claims, here. But nothing surprises me now. Things change so fast, now that the banks have got their rears in gear. We are getting hit by new stuff, and reeling from it. We pick ourselves up, and dust ourselves off......and wait for the next hit !!

 

IMVHO, Red, you deserve all the support these guys can give you here, for just going in with a decent fighting spirit and throwing punches first. That is the way to put up a fight, I reckon.

 

Just try and keep your eyes open, and listen to what strategies your "second" whispers in your ear between rounds.

 

Cue Rocky theme.......

 

PS - just stepped on Photoman's toes. Apologies and thanks, also.

[RedDeath]

Thanks for the support, I appreciate everyone who stops by, even if it is to call me nuts!

 

That's all you can do in life, pick yourself back up, rub the dust off, grab the guitar and carry on walking down that dusty old path.

 

I have had a lot of positive debate which is what I need. Its a credit to this site to be able to push forward ideas and have them analysed and torn apart. Then you can rebuild that same arguement better and stronger. Eventually, you will have a lot of very strong points, and the defence still has to go through them all and defend them. No standard templates accepted here, I have a lot of valid points, I want them all answered. hehe and I also get the chance to p**s em off. See? I can self-edit!

 

I think when it comes to power it is about understanding as much as you can about your opponent and the way to get at him. The more I understand about the court system the better prepared I will be. If I know when and how they are going to fight then I can duck and strike again and again. My power is the power of education! I just need to adapt to the battlefield.

 

On a happy note I now have 4 days off work and capital one's cheque landed on my doorstep today. £1100, woohoo. That was the tester case. Still a long way to go before I can properly celebrate, but some time off to recharge the batteries is still well deserved, after that i'm afraid it's no sleep until Brixton!

 

I am busy putting together a couple of spreadsheets that plot loans compared to different interest levels. Visualisation is always a great tool!!

Does anyone know any easy site that I can post them on?

[RedDeath]

Thanks Els great advice,

 

CL is quantifiable and something you, in your professional capacity, should find relatively easy to calculate. Damages, in the context of deterioration of well-being, health, lifestyle, career, confidence, self-respect, defamation, etc.

 

Yes i am confusing damages with consequenital losses. Thankfully my ammened charge list to lloyds hasn't gone out yet. Quick edit required. (still threatening them at the moment)Thanks alot.

 

Glenn,

As I recall there is provision in the DPA Sec 13 or 14 perhaps (?) which gives subjects the right to claim for damages. I would need to go look to refresh my mind as to what they say in detail, but I'm sure they are there.

 

True, i think the principles are there..would have to read it all again to find out how much is valid. However, I could always add exemplary damages for breach of the data protection act. Another couple hundred quid.

[bill-k]

I am busy putting together a couple of spreadsheets that plot loans compared to different interest levels

If I can help at all with these, then PM me.

On a happy note I now have 4 days off work and capital one's cheque landed on my doorstep today. £1100, woohoo.

Hey -

CONGRATULATIONS

on your Crapitall win, Red !!

So that's 4 days in which to get well and truly p1$$ed, then. Enjoy !!

 

You've certainly had a lot of peeps drop in recently with all this stuff - it must seem like you're at the bottom of an American Footbal pile-up !!

 

Cue next movie......Debbie Does Dallas ? Remember - it's not the size of your claim that matters, it's the way that you action it !!

.........................

[RedDeath]

CONGRATULATIONS

 

Haha, thanks! Yeah they said 14 working days for the cheque so I expected that would have arrived around the 16th so really good timing as i'f off for 4 days now.

 

Think it's gonna be a bottle of tequila, some good friends and a guitar. Maybe shoot my own home made debbie does dallas.

 

Actually i feel far from the bottom of an American Football pile up (how can they use the word football beats me). A wise man once said:

 

Try and discern the fear-based from the logic-based negatives.

 

Once you cut out the "ARE YOU CRAZY" posts there have been some excellent bits of advice, so with advice like that its easy to feel on top of the world. I am more confident with my claim and the whole process, so much work still to do for it but with 20k + life really does take a different twist.

 

Soundtrack "Seven Nation Army" I'm gonna fight it all, a seven nation army couldn't hold me down.

 

Edit: nice folk Capital One, offered part settlement immediately and added £100 for stress & distress, very kind of them. The first bottle of tequila is on them!

[lucid]

This argument i.e. that claims would be struck out in their entirety, has also been presented on threads re CI and as far as I can tell there is no basis for it.

 

As we know the Judges are all powerful in their own court, well at least until someone appeals a decision, and they could, should they so choose, strike a whole claim out on a whim. This IMHO is unlikely if the claim is genuine and well prepared.

 

Be happy to change my view if someone can present some evidence that adding CI or Damages to a claim would get it struck out simply on that basis alone.

 

Oh nearly forgot, I think Dayglos claim which included damages and was heard in its entirety (and incidentally the judge commented on how well it was presented and prepared even though she found against him).

 

I completely agree with Glenn here and have put across a similiar point on CI threads before. I firmly believe that if you put together a very well prepared case, then even if the Judge doesn't agree with your arguments it would be very harsh (in particular for litigants in person) for them to strike it out. Surely there must have been many occasions when Judges have completely disagreed with a Claimant's claim but I'm sure it's very rare for them to get striken out. Surely the whole point in the court is for two parties to put together different arguments. The parties obviously don't agree otherwise they wouldn't be needing to use the court, and the Judge certainly isn't going to agree with both parties.

 

Just to push the boundries a little further (he he) at that point I can ask for my own costs at £9.xx an hour? Would 120 hours be too many? The way i look at it if they could charge £7500 then I can certainly add some juice on this one as well.

 

Hi RD,

 

I'm not sure if you're joking or not here but I would say 120 hours is very excessive and I don't think it would be taken seriously at all. Me and Mindzai claimed for 20 hours preparation between us which we felt may have been a slight underestimate, but we discounted any time spent on the forum etc. We felt that the 20 hours represented our time spent on letter writing, researching our cases and bringing together our arguments that we would have used in the court, and preapring the dreaded court bundle. In all honestly I don't think we spent a lot more than that - obviously we have spent a lot more time on this forum but I don't think that should really count.

 

You may have been joking - apologies if you were - but I think that the claiming of cost has to been done realistically for the court to take it seriously, especially if you're in the small claims.

 

Good luck and glad to see you're taking your time with this.

 

Lucid

[Glenn UK]

RE costs its not the time per se that the problem its making sure you can justify your time spent.

 

On my thread Glenn Vs abbey theres a link to a spreadsheet i prepared with a schedule of costs for the court, the total claimed was £822 including £350 of court fees, Abbey paid up.

 

Taking the court fees off gave rise to an equivalent time charge for 51 hours over 9 months or so.

 

HTH

 

Glenn

[lucid]

Hi Glenn,

 

Definitely agree there. I think it's really important when going for costs to account for absolutely everything and explain how you got that figure, rather than just putting together a basic list which could potentially be seen as a list of made up figures.

 

Lucid

[RedDeath]

Lucid & Glenn,

 

Yes I was joking, well semi-joking, I am joking about 120 hours but serious about costs. It would be intersting to see what the upper limit would be on this. I'll drop by your thread Glenn and have a look at that. I think 51 hours seems like a realistic figure. Seems to mirror Teebum v Abbey (50 hours) and yes Lucid, you need to account properly for the charges, quantify it properly and make it realistic, i'm wanting to get paid on it afterall.

 

120 hours would have made £1000 ish, I must be getting greedy

 

What if I included all you guys as associates, and get them to pay 20 hours each??? Post a comment & qualify for a bonus. I think I could squeeze that one in past the CI and CL

[lucid]

Hi RD,

 

Glad to hear you were. It may seem obvious to say you should keep it realsitic and properly quantify everything but I have seen people lately who aren't doing that. Unfortunately I think there are some who are seeing costs as a way of potentially adding on a fair amount of extra money and taking it too far. There was somebody who got their claim struck out (their claim for costs, not the actual charges claim as that had already been settled) and I believe the reason was they produced a simple list and didn't account for anything. They gave themselves about 50 hours research/prep time, claimed a fair amount for letter costs but didn't say what the figure consisted of - I think their whole costs claim was over £500.

 

I think Glenn's spreadsheet sounds very good and certainly a useful tool for anybody wanting to pursue costs. It is very hard to allocate time spent so I'm sure it will help a lot of people.

 

Lucid

[TANZARELLI]

Hi Red you have had some useful posts on here now and I hope you feel able to make an informed decision that best suits you.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

Tanz

[RedDeath]

Cheers Tanz,

 

Yes, I have had some excellent advice so thank you all again.

The informed decision has been reached...going for CI & CL.

Anyway, last post for a day or two as Capital One's money has now been cleared and I am off to get wasted!!

Happy Easter to all!!

[TANZARELLI]

Cheers Tanz,

 

Yes, I have had some excellent advice so thank you all again.

The informed decision has been reached...going for CI & CL.

Anyway, last post for a day or two as Capital One's money has now been cleared and I am off to get wasted!!

Happy Easter to all!!

 

Fair play, I had one of those courtesy of Crap One the other week after they settled and removed the default. lol

 

The beer taste sweeter after a victory somehow.

 

Tanz

[RedDeath]

Fair play, I had one of those courtesy of Crap One the other week after they settled and removed the default. lol

 

Yeah, you were in quite a good mood last week, and a well deserved one as well. It sure does, the beer always tastes better when it's paid by a big faceless multinational.

 

I originally asked for £1200 and they sent £1100 and refused to pay costs. Quick letter to the judge and yesterday £1100 landed on my doorstep and the extra £100 landed today. Sweet!!!

 

Anyway...this is it for the moment, caught up on things, time to pack the guitar in the car, stop of at the supermarket for "refershments" and drive up to a quiet spot in the highlands for a hell of a party with a hell of a good bunch of mates.

[TANZARELLI]

Have a good one.

[Guest bong]

know you are away this weekend RD but this is for when you return to earth BBC NEWS | Programmes | Moneybox | Court bid for bank charge ruling

 

And it's on Friday 13th too!!

[Glenn UK]

Seems those on CAG who feel that something in addition to the amounts paid and beyond Sec69 are not alone then?

 

Be interesting to see the outcome wont it?

 

Glenn