UKCPM 2*PCN's Now PAPLOC's - residential parking - Highbury Drive Leatherhead

[sandokan]

Hello all,

 

Let me say thank you and I really appreciate and I have found the discussions extremely useful, so big congrats for keeping the good work here.

 

I received two PCNs from UKCPM as well hence I arrived here so please see below answers and context of the situation.

 

The car is on wife's name, she's concerned that her name might pop-up in DBS checks if she's called in court so not sure about this. I have seen a list but I am still I am confused.

 

I rent the place and always parked on the rightful bay hence the car was in the correct bay at the time of the PCN however in this instance without the parking permit visible, hence UKCPM mentioned this breach due to not displaying a valid permit.

 

I checked with the property management company today over the phone and the lady said UKCPM is engaged in patrol as per the call with her and the property management is only involved when there's a company illegally parked on the driveway. She suggested to appeal to UKCPM directly as they (property mng comp) are not involved. (of course not helpful at all)

 

The tenancy agreement only mentions about the quiet enjoyment where the tenant shall peaceably hold and enjoy the premises during the term without any unlawful interruption by the Landlord or any person rightfully claiming under, through or in try for the Landlord.

  

Given the 21 days constraint to appeal, I think on Monday is the last day (for the first PCN) and I was thinking to send my appeal by post today( Friday) ?

 

a) I intend to mention the right I have to park on the bay supersedes the ticket display (the supposed breach)

 

b) include the printed permit sitting on my dashboard (from a picture) for them to see that I have a valid permit and

 

c) only first page and last page of the tenancy supplement agreement showing the extension signed last time where my name and wife's name is visible along with the address that's on the PCN (would this mean I lose the POFA protection if they see the names and address?)

 

d) given that the car was on the correct bay, no damage was done to no one (parking company, landowner, residents etc.) hence their amount is not justified, can I talk about the GPOEL?

 

I saw an interesting consultation of the Government position, dated 7 June 2022 

“Private parking charges, discount rates, debt collection fees and appeals charter:

further technical consultation response as of June 7th 2022,

 

where at the Appeals Charter section outlining how operators should handle certain grounds of appeal against parking charges which are based on innocent error or mitigating circumstances, the Government position proposes the following appeal charter at point 37 “d) Failure to display permit (copy of permit then supplied) - Is this worth mentioning?

 

 Please see below details:

 

1. Date of the infringement  

a) Incident time: 20 Feb 2023>>>

b) incident time: 24 Feb 2023>>>

 

2. Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date]

a) Issued date: 21 Feb 2023

b) issued date: 25 Feb 2023

 

3. Date received

I think it was 27 Feb (first one) and 1-2 March (second one) and I received it by post.

Yes, please see all details attached in pdf.

 

4.Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?]

Y

 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event?

Y - please see attached pdf.

 

6. Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal]

N - I am preparing to do it by post now, today

 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up

N

 

7 Who is the parking company?

UK CPM

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town]

Carpark - Highbury Drive

Town - Leatherhead

 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

IAS

 

 Where and how should I start?

Thank you very much

 

[FTMDave]

The problem with your logic is this.  Who would you be appealing to?

 

The National Private Residents' National Parking Appeals Service? (doesn't' exist, I've just made it up).

 

No, the very fleecers who have charged you £200.  You would be appealing to the very parasites who are trying to rip you off, and admitting you didn't follow what was written on their signs.  Realistically - what are they going to say?

 

 

[dx100uk]

where the BEEP did you get all that BS from....

now removed to stop other from disappearing down rabbit holes...

 

a speculative invoice is NOT A PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE....ie NOT A FINE!!

its a civil contract matter ...at the very outside, unless you are totally brainless, ends up as a CCJ.

[dx100uk]

48 minutes ago, sandokan said:

when there's a company illegally parked on the driveway.

parking on PRIVATE LAND IS NOT ILLEGAL - ILLEGAL = A Criminal OFFENCE!!

its unlawful = a civil contract matter - county court system NOT criminal - magistrates court.. 

50 minutes ago, sandokan said:

Given the 21 days constraint to appeal, I think on Monday is the last day (for the first PCN) and I was thinking to send my appeal by post today( Friday) ?

nope DO NOT APPEAL

 

dx

 

[FTMDave]

12 minutes ago, Anawilliam850 said:

When appealing to UKCPM, it's important to include any evidence that supports your case. In this instance, you should include a copy of the parking permit that was displayed on your dashboard at the time of the PCN, as well as the first and last page of your tenancy agreement supplement that shows your name and address

Nonsense.  The private parking companies never, ever, ever, ever accept appeals - ever.

 

If I'm wrong, please post a link to a successful UKCPM appeal.  Just the one will do.

 

13 minutes ago, Anawilliam850 said:

1. The GPOEL (General Principles of Enforcement by Parking Adjudicators) is a guidance document that provides general principles for parking enforcement. While it is not legally binding, it may be useful to reference it in your appeal.

What a load of baloney.  The abbreviation means Genuine Pre-Estimate of Loss and has been obsolete since 2013.

 

15 minutes ago, Anawilliam850 said:

Finally, if your appeal to UKCPM is unsuccessful, you can consider appealing to the Independent Appeals Service (IAS). It's important to note that the IAS is funded by the parking industry and has been criticized for not being impartial, so your chances of success may be lower.

LOL.  The IPC parking association was set up so that it, its appeals body the IAS, and the firm of solicitors who mostly get their grubby fingers into private parking cases - were all run by the same people!  No conflict of interest there!

[brassnecked]

Simplify this down to basics, this is a Civil Matter, and will not appear on any DBS check its an invoice for an alleged Breach of a Contract UKPS allege you entered into with them by parking on land they infest  so by not displaying a permit they see £££ signs.

 

Do not appeal

 

Check your Tenancy Agreement regarding parking, is it a Allocated Bay as in its yours exclusively as in you are say Flat 10, so you have bay 10?  There might be Superiority  or Supremacy of Contract where your right to use the bay over rides their right to ticket you for parking in own bay.

 

Don't worry the team will help you fight this.

[Nicky Boy]

Hi sandokan,

 

As has already been said, it's a bad idea to appeal.

1) You could give away valuable legal protection... The fleecers can only legally pursue the DRIVER of the vehicle for their invoice and you may inadvertantly reveal that you were the driver during their pretend appeals process.

2) You will also reveal information you will use as a defence IF they do court.

Fleecers have been known to accept appeals, but it's EXTREMELY rare.

 

You will start receiving a sequence of letters, which will get more intimidating. They use a LOT of red ink and large fonts!... scary!

Over time, the invoice will also increase by made up amounts and they will probably demand your first-born as collateral.

Keep it all and file it away, 'cos they can chase you for up to 6 years!

(So, if you move during that time, write and let them know to avoid a possible back door CCJ).

 

The usual advice is to ignore everything they send, unless you get a "letter of claim", then you come back here for further advice.

 

If you get correspondence you're not sure of, just post it up here and the guys will take a look for you.

 

In the meantime, read a few "success" threads to get an idea of the sort of things to expect and to educate yourself on the finer legal points and what thieving scumbags these private parking companies are... start with the recent threads, because things do change over time.

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by Nicky Boy
spelling, doh!

[brassnecked]

One question, is this a fob access car parking area?

[sandokan]

@brassneckedYes, it's with a remote control if that's the correct name and with a gate.

 

Thanks Nicky, the one you shared was one of many tabs open by not checked yet. On the moving house subject. Who I should let know? UKCPM? by post?

 

@FTMDave I know I know, but what does pushes me back is my lack of knowledge on this subject (on the positive side the learning curve is steep because of all new things) and secondly, my wife is the registered keeper.

 

There is only one reference to parking space which is the definition The Premises than nothing about the premises except for the quiet enjoyment as follows:

 

That the Tenant paying the rent and performing and observing the obligations on the Tenant’s part contained in this Agreement shall peaceably hold and enjoy the Premises during the Term without any unlawful interruption by the Landlord or any person rightfully claiming under, through or in trust for the Landlord.

Edited March 10, 2023 by sandokan

[FTMDave]

Thanks.  Can you post the definition of "parking space"?  Sorry to seem pernickety but it is important.

[brassnecked]

Especially as with restricted entry by fob or a keypad there isn't really any need for a fleecer to be active in a place like that.

[sandokan]

On 10/03/2023 at 11:54, FTMDave said:

Thanks.  Can you post the definition of "parking space"?  Sorry to seem pernickety but it is important.

 

Apologies if I've not been very clear on my last post.

 

That's what I meant: 

 

The Premises
References to ‘the Premises’ include reference to any part or parts of the Premises and the curtilage of the same, together with the garden, garage and parking space (if applicable).

 

Then everything that mentions premises, doesn't directly relate to the parking apart from what I mentioned previously.

 

Now, what might be indirectly related (maybe) from what I read the agreement are the following ones:

 

A) Access and Inspection:

 1. To permit the Landlord, or any superior Landlord, or the Landlord’s Agent or contractors or those authorised by the Landlord, upon giving at least 24 hours notice in writing (except in an emergency) to enter the Premises at all reasonable times for the purpose of inspection and repair, to include inspection and repair to any adjoining or neighbouring Premises.

 

2. To indemnify the Landlord for any loss incurred by the Landlord as a result of the Tenant failing to keep a previously agreed appointment with any third party at the Premises.

 

B) Interests and Consents:

1. That he is the sole/joint owner of the leasehold or freehold interest in the Premises and that all consents necessary to enable him to enter this Agreement (whether from superior landlords, mortgages, insurers or others) have been obtained.

 

I am not sure about A and B ?

 

On 10/03/2023 at 12:04, brassnecked said:

Especially as with restricted entry by fob or a keypad there isn't really any need for a fleecer to be active in a place like that.

 

I do remember once but I was myself only, that the guy came in the parking while I was about to leave and a car next to me didn't had the permit shown (this was around the COVID period) and I literally told him

 

"Hi don't do a ticket for this car because it is actually renting here" and the guy didn't, he just left on.

 

This wasn't recorded, I didn't had any witness, it was just me trying to make a favour for one of my neighbours.

Now I wish I could see him down there..

[Nicky Boy]

1 hour ago, sandokan said:

Thanks Nicky, the one you shared was one of many tabs open by not checked yet. On the moving house subject. Who I should let know? UKCPM? by post?

 

Yes,

Also get a free proof of posting from the post office.

[FTMDave]

See what the others think too - but what you've quoted looks very promising to me.

 

The parking space is defined as part of the premises which you're allowed quiet enjoyment of.  Nothing about displaying damn permits.

 

Your contract trumps anything the management company later come up with with the fleecers.  This is called Supremacy of Contract and has been tested in court many times.

 

However, given your doubts above, let's be realistic about what will happen now.

 

The fleecers know all about Supremacy of Contract, and they couldn't give a monkey's.  Their "job" is to make up idiotic restrictions for motorists to break so they can issue their PCNs, and they maintain they are always in the right.

 

If you ignore them, as we advise, then you will have to endure deforestation which will end with a formal threat of court action (Letter of Claim) which is the point when you leap into action and ridicule their case, whereupon they usually crawl back under their stone.

 

If you appeal, as you are suggesting, then they will reject your appeal, but they will note you respected their procedures and will step up the deforestation thinking you might give in which will end with a formal threat of court action (Letter of Claim) which is the point when you leap into action and ridicule their case, whereupon they usually crawl back under their stone.

 

There is no magic solution.

 

 

[Nicky Boy]

I agree with FTM,

 

There's nothing in your tenancy agreement about needing permits to park in your own parking space... Supremacy of contract.

 

As already mentioned, your car parking is accessed with a wireless fob. So it begs the question... Why is a parking management company needed at all?

 

On Google satellite, it looks like there may be some outside parking, which isn't behind a barrier. Maybe it's those parking spaces they're supposed to "manage"?

 

Maybe an enquiry with the landlord could shed some light.

 

Also let them know that their parking management company are harassing tenants with pointless tickets and could they please arrange cancellation of yours.

[sandokan]

I called them and they said over the phone the parking management company is engaged in patrol and that the they (property management company) will engage only when there are cars parked illegally on the driveway. The lady suggested me to follow the appeal process which is useless.

 

I am only concerned about the time it will take to deal with this, might add to the stress level as this is going for maybe 6 months at least and currently anything that might come would be on my wife's name so she's not "ambitious" to purse this. On the positive side, I think it's a really good experience to learn the process by actual doing it. In the worst case, what's the worst outcome apart from paying the amounts? In both cases I see you're confident they will lose?

[FTMDave]

You're right, the matter will drag on for six months and indeed probably longer.  The fleecers can send stupid "threatening" letters as long as they want.

 

I agree with you that getting into a fight with these charlatans is a good way to learn about the law - but, hey, we're all not the same.

 

I think it's time to get nasty, and in writing, with the parking management company, making it clear you have Supremacy of Contract and they will be in hot water legally if they don't start to cooperate.  The regulars can help you knock up a letter over the weekend.

 

The worst, worst, worst thing that could happen is that in a year's time the fleecers could take court action, which you would win, but if you lost the cost would be £200 + maybe £100 small claims court costs.  As long as people who lose court cases pay within the 30 days ordered by the court, there is no CCJ.

 

You can, if you wish, remove your wife from the loop by her writing to the fleecers and saying you were the driver who parked the car on both occasions.  The letters would then be sent to you (although you would have slightly helped the fleecers by identifying the driver).

Edited March 10, 2023 by FTMDave
Extra info added

[Nicky Boy]

I called them and they said over the phone the parking management company is engaged in patrol and that the they (property management company) will engage only when there are cars parked illegally on the driveway.

 

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

Try something in writing now to the landlord (email?)

 

Point out that you weren't parked "illegally" or on "the driveway".

You were a tenant parking in your allocated parking space within the terms of your tenancy agreement.

 

You shouldn't need to be "appealing" anything.

 

THEY have engaged CPM.. THEY should cancel the ticket.

 

Don't forget to quote the PCN numbers...

[brassnecked]

This might be helpful to illustrate Supremacy of Contract in Residential parking issues

Parking Prankster: Residential Parking

PARKING-PRANKSTER.BLOGSPOT.COM

---

There are many residential situations where some form of parking management is desired, but instead of doing their homework properly and...

 

[FTMDave]

How about sending something like this on Monday to focus the management company's minds -

 

Dear XXXXX,

 

I refer to the two recent speculative invoices I have received from your agents UK Car Park Management Ltd and to the telephone call I had with you on XXXXX.

 

The person i spoke to, albeit polite, did not understand even the most basic legal concepts.  She talked about "illegal parking".  If something is illegal, it is a crime.  There are no crimes being carried out here, these are purely civil matters.

 

As well as looking up the difference between "illegal" and "unlawful", i suggest you also look up "Supremacy of Contact" which is what i enjoy.  I am entitled to quiet enjoyment of my premises which include my parking space, without being harassed for demands for money by the leeches you have invited in to "manage" the car park.

 

Let me make myself very clear.  I refuse to pay these invoices.  I will also not be taking part in the crooked appeals process where the parking company judge themselves.  This will no doubt lead to them suing me in a couple of months' time,  which i will  robustly defend and also add your company as a Third Party.  You are the organ grinder, you invited these bloodsuckers in to try to extort money from genuine residents simply parking their own cars in their own proper allotted spaces.

 

Of course all this unpleasantness could easily be avoided if you simply faced up to your responsibilities and ordered these parasites to cancel the two invoices.

 

Yours,

 

XXXXX

 

Brassnecked beat me to it with Supremacy of Contract cases.

 

Have a look at these too over the weekend -

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/11/link-parking-lose-in-wrexham-flat-owner.html

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2017/05/ukpc-lose-residential-case-will-vicim.html?m=0

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2017/07/ukpc-lose-residential-case-tenant-can.html

 

[brassnecked]

The ones highlighted by FTMDave are well worth reading it gives you the hows and why's the fleecer's are o a downer especially with  gated car park

[sandokan]

Thank you soo much Dave!

I have today also managed to find the email address of on the directors from Companies House, hence this would go straight to him and copy in cc the Senior Property Manager I spoke over the phone, on Monday. I really appreciate and makes me think the humanity is not lost  

 

@brassneckedThanks a lot, I'll be reading them. It's gold and I appreciate a lot sharing these with me.

 

@nickyboYep, I'll add them so that hopefully they will make the move. I really appreciate Nicky 

[sandokan]

Hi,

 

I hope you had a good weekend.

 

Just to let you know I've sent the email to one of the directors of the property management company.

 

I think the deadline to appeal within the 21 days for the first PCN is tomorrow for them to receive it.

 

My only concern derives from the fact that I want to take out my wife out of this....but let's see if he replies maybe today and at least I'll know something from their side. 

[Nicky Boy]

Well, if you nreally want to remove your wife from the proceedings is for her to inform the fleecers that you were the driver.

 

I don't know whether you should do that by returning their own paperwork with the transfer of liability section completed, or just to write a letter.

A letter might get lost in their system, (which could be a very good thing).

 

Let's wait for others to comment.

 

Also, out of interest, why do you want your wife out of it?

Would she rather just pay the fleecers?

 

 

[sandokan]

I think the first reason is that she doesn't have the willingness to pursue in this process if the mindset is not there, she'll not do it properly. And I believe this also comes from the lack of the big picture and key points of even if you have the money to pay them, you have to question if that's correct, which I truly believe it's not, to be fined on your own parking space.

 

Her level of stress is already high due to current work not sure how much this would add up.  I am willing to go further, hence the reason to stay steady.