Seized engine vehicle on day of purchase - Hartley Wintney motors UK

[Mottymotto1]

I’ve asked if they are a member of any scheme and met silence. Does anyone know if they continue to withhold my refund if this would be considered as theft? Also they keep going on to me about paying their garage bill and getting the car towed back to them before they agree to refund me.

 

They told me and the garage that the warranty would cover the works that they authorised, but I requested a copy of the warranty 3 times before rejecting the vehicle, and they have never produced it.  

 

I’m wondering if they have lied to me and the garage if this would be considered as fraud. Both these acts are criminal and would face a higher court other than civil, and may lead to criminal prosecution. Just wonders if this is true?! 

[Peterbard]

11 hours ago, Dodgeball said:

Hmm, re Ombudsman

it seems like the dealer has to be a member of varios organisations in order to be bound by the various codes of practice

 

https://www.themotorombudsman.org/consumers/our-codes-of-practice/vehicle-sales-code

 

My thought was, if they are not a member, are they still able to use their Services.?There is a link above which will tell you if the garage are. members.

[Anidog1]

Hi. I too have bought a car from this garage on 2 March. Just 29 days later and after doing 1000 miles, I had to be towed off the M4. I took out a 2 year warranty with WMS, through the garage and that's the direction the garage keeps pointing me in.  As advised by WMS I got a mechanic to look at it last night.  4 pages of faults from the diagnostic machine. No oil. No coolant. Knackered gasket. Air con disconnected. Heater/fan director isn't connected - can't demist windscreen as air only blows out the front vents! Service light showing service needed/overdue. Brake fluid low and dirty/contaminated. As soon as I drove it out the garage the petrol light came on because they'd driven it to London the day before to do the MOT. No screenwash. Empty sandwich packet in footwell on passenger side. He told me it's a used car. Things can go wrong! I  ow have a car that wont move stuck outside my house and I'm having to get taxis to work. The garage want it in writing that I want a refund. My 83 year old mother lent me the money for the car. I just want my money back so I can replace it. My mechanic said if the proper checks had been carried out then the faults could never have been overlooked. Fortunately I work for solicitors but I need a car now! 

[Mottymotto1]

1 hour ago, Anidog1 said:

Make sure you get HWM to agree to any repairs with the garage and do not get involved. I made sure the garage got authorization through HWM directly, and now HWM are refusing to pay the garage too saying that I had authorised the work and was my bill even though it was day 1 of a 3 month warranty. The garage know this is bs so im ok there. Don't expect to see a copy of the warranty as it doubt it even exists, Put in writing to them ASAP that you want to reject the vehicle under the 30 day right to reject rule through consumer rights act......do this NOW!!!! There "complaints" email is hwm.fca@hotmail.com. Email straight away with the complaint but make sure you are open to mediation in case you need to go to court as the CRA through Court requires you to have tried to resolve the issue first. I wonder if there is an organisation that can investigate this company or their complaints procedure as I imagine were not alone! Maybe we should keep in contact through this thread and support each other as best we can to get the right result!

I am now looking at court action, but my CC are getting back to me in regards to a section 75 I opened, and im awaiting there response. 

Let me know how you get on, make sure you send that email as a formal complaint!

 

 

[Anidog1]

I've fired an email off to that email address today. I don't intend to have any repairs done to it. I've told them I want my money back and for them to come and remove it from outside my house. I also attached copies if the AA report from Sunday when they towed me home (which by the way, the towing eye had been removed from the tool kit in the boot!), plus the mechanic's report of what he found along with the 4 page diagnostic report. I really don't see how they can deny anything with the evidence I have sent them. Although matey at HWM, when I told him the AA man said there was evidence of oil emulsion in the coolant expansion bottle which suggests to him there had already been a previous problem with the head gasket, he goes, he can't say that! Well, actually he just did cos he probably knows more about cars than you do!

[Mottymotto1]

From my experience with them it doesn't seem to matter what evidence you have, they wont take any responsibility. If you want your money you will have to take them to court. Im sorry if that's not want you want to hear but its true. I have eb=verything in my favour, absolutely everything!! The law, the evidence, the reports of professionals, trading standards, procedural rule, everything! Yet they refuse to give me a refund, and when I asked them why? they wont even respond with an answer. Absolute **** bags. 

I made sure everything in writing, no phone calls. Every call that was made prior they denied what they had said, even to me as though I imagined it! They never answered a single question I asked, and wouldn't even follow through a complaint procedure.

Im just waiting on response back from credit card regarding what they can refund and then will be opening my court claim for the rest! Im not going to let them get away with a penny! It seems this is there way of doing business and I guess they believe you will let things go, which I guess some people do. 

 

[Anidog1]

Received this email late last night. Not quite sure why it can take up to 14 days! All they have to do is pick up the phone and call him. What is the point of CRA if when you request a refund, the company refuses?

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

In response to your email a full investigation will be made with our sales department Adam. This investigation can take up to 14 working days. We will respond to your case within the time scale 

Kind regards
Peter fletcher 
 

[king12345]

9 hours ago, Mottymotto1 said:

From my experience with them it doesn't seem to matter what evidence you have, they wont take any responsibility. If you want your money you will have to take them to court. Im sorry if that's not want you want to hear but its true. I have eb=verything in my favour, absolutely everything!! The law, the evidence, the reports of professionals, trading standards, procedural rule, everything! Yet they refuse to give me a refund, and when I asked them why? they wont even respond with an answer. Absolute **** bags. 

I made sure everything in writing, no phone calls. Every call that was made prior they denied what they had said, even to me as though I imagined it! They never answered a single question I asked, and wouldn't even follow through a complaint procedure.

Im just waiting on response back from credit card regarding what they can refund and then will be opening my court claim for the rest! Im not going to let them get away with a penny! It seems this is there way of doing business and I guess they believe you will let things go, which I guess some people do. 

 

When you apply for a section 75 refund the credit card company must refund the all loss, not just what you paid by card (if the clsim goes through)

It's in the regulations.

[Mottymotto1]

Hi King12345, I hope you are right, but im not sure if it covers all my other losses due to this issue such as travel costs, loss of insurance and tax due to cancelation etc..

As long as I get the full amount back for the car including deposit I can get another vehicle and chase the remaining £300 of costs through small claims court. I just need my money back so I can buy a car! Im meant to be going on a driving holiday for a long weekend with my family in a few weeks so time is ticking!!!

 

Anidog1, looks like your doing better than I did already, as a complaints handler has given you their name (Peter)! I never got a name of complaints handler even when I asked for it! 

Adam is the guy at the showroom who I dealt with and is the person I have mentioned in all of my posts. Very nice at first, then he changed when I asked for a refund. He also told the garage that HE employed to pass the cost of the exploratory work plus vehicle holding costs (approx. £500) to me. He told me he would send me the warranty on 3 occasions but never did. He also lied to me and the garage about numerous things, and tried to make a "deal" with me that involved me losing around £1500 and got nasty when I said no way! He was also nasty to the garage staff as they told me he was I quote "A very slippery character and a nasty piece of work". 

Is that your review on Autotrader?? I have also added a review

[Anidog1]

I thought that name was strange because none of them at HWM looked like a Peter, if you get me. I looked them up on Companies House and they're registered to an office in Park Lane or Park Royal. You can also look at their accounts. However, they're clearly engaging in delay tactics even though they responded, because they responded at 23:55 last night. I sent my email at about 2.40 yesterday. I've also fired off another one today asking why it should take up to 14 days to investigate - it would appear they're at the same address! You're probably sat next to him mate, just lean across and ask him! I said obviously Adam is going to say he sold what he thought was a sound car but I said had they carried out a pre-sale service, like an awful lot of other used car garages and that they might want to think about that in the future, the faults would have been pointed out, should they have used a reputable mechanic. I went on to point out that if it IS going to take 14 days, as I now have now car, do I have their authority to rent a courtesy car and charge it to them? I sent that at 9am - no reply as of yet.

 

I agree Adam came across as very amiable, but when a man who works for Vauxhall who is a friend called him yesterday on my behalf, he said he did start to become quite shirty. 

 

I did put a review on, I think through the Motor Ombudsman. Described it as a shocking garage!

[Mottymotto1]

I too suspect the "complaints" team is based at the showroom address and I believe is actually the same people at the showroom using a different email address. The 2 guys I spoke to there were Adam and Alan (neither of which looked like their name), and companies house has the owner listed as a Hussain Ali (I think). There was another guy I see there but I didnt get his name.

The complaints team or litigation team as I was told, told me that if I wanted a refund I would have to prove the fault was there at time of purchase, and provide a report proving it was there at time of purchase which of course is impossible.

I confirmed the Consumer Rights Act regulations on this to them which actually states its up to the seller to prove the fault wasn't there at time of purchase as the law assumes up to 6 months from purchase that any major fault would have been there at time of purchase......I had the car about 4.5 hours!

At this point I asked them to provide ME with the report they have proving the cars condition was as advertised and sold to me, proving the fault wasnt there at time of purchase. Funnily enough they never even responded or even acknowledged me. 

[Surfer01]

6 minutes ago, Mottymotto1 said:

I too suspect the "complaints" team is based at the showroom address and I believe is actually the same people at the showroom using a different email address. The 2 guys I spoke to there were Adam and Alan (neither of which looked like their name), and companies house has the owner listed as a Hussain Ali (I think). There was another guy I see there but I didnt get his name.

The complaints team or litigation team as I was told, told me that if I wanted a refund I would have to prove the fault was there at time of purchase, and provide a report proving it was there at time of purchase which of course is impossible.

I confirmed the Consumer Rights Act regulations on this to them which actually states its up to the seller to prove the fault wasn't there at time of purchase as the law assumes up to 6 months from purchase that any major fault would have been there at time of purchase......I had the car about 4.5 hours!

At this point I asked them to provide ME with the report they have proving the cars condition was as advertised and sold to me, proving the fault wasnt there at time of purchase. Funnily enough they never even responded or even acknowledged me. 

If the vehicle broke down within 30 days then under CRA 2015 it is assumed that the fault was there prior to delivery i.e. inherent!  You are being strung along and they are playing with you.  Don't bother contacting them again as you have given them more than enough opportunity refund.  Go straight for the jugular!

[Anidog1]

I don't know if you can open them but I've attached the 3 documents supporting my claim. I think they would find it very hard to try and say these faults have only occurred AFTER the 1,000 miles I've put on the clock since I bought the bloody car.

 

Diagnostic Report.pdf

Mechanic Report.pdfAA Report.pdf

[Mottymotto1]

Wow, just looked through those reports and the way I see it is that this example is more than just selling a car not as good as advertised, but his is actually dangerous to the vehicle user. I'm pretty sure this is totally illegal through Criminal Law! I guess his is something you may be able to look into through your firm!

 

I had only used my car for about 60 miles before it died and that was with breaks in-between too and not 1 continuous journey, yet the car was diagnosed by the garage as having catastrophic engine failure - seized engine (also diagnosed by AA when they attended). They also told me the oil was low. When I picked the car up I had to go straight to the Jet petrol station as the fuel was below the empty line. (interestingly no fuel light come on and the BMW I bought had an electrical warning system for the oil which didn't come on either, so Im guessing there was more faults on the vehicle too.

The only reason this hasn't been picked up in the report is because HWM were authorising the work, and refused to continue with it after finding out about the engine. Should a full report had been done (not required now) I wonder what else would have been found. 

 

Even though I had only done 60 miles, they have told me that I have to prove the fault was already there and not entitled to a refund irrelevant of garage report showing major failure! 

 

 

[king12345]

Someone mentioned Park Royal.

I go often to a large scrap yard in that area as I run older cars and often need parts.

I witnessed all the times i have been there a number of non-Adam, non-Peter (don't know if you can mention ethnic background here, some people are easily offended) negotiating prices for whole vehicles at the front desk or swapping parts (engine parts, tyres, suspensions, interiors, etc.) from different cars in the yard, looking like they're making one runner out of 3.

Could it be that these unfit vehicles are the not bad enough to get the dismantling documents and then end up in these salesmen's yards?

[Anidog1]

I love that, non-Adam, non-Peter! 

[Anidog1]

It's 47-49 Park Royal Road, London

[Mottymotto1]

1 hour ago, king12345 said:

Someone mentioned Park Royal.

I go often to a large scrap yard in that area as I run older cars and often need parts.

I witnessed all the times i have been there a number of non-Adam, non-Peter (don't know if you can mention ethnic background here, some people are easily offended) negotiating prices for whole vehicles at the front desk or swapping parts (engine parts, tyres, suspensions, interiors, etc.) from different cars in the yard, looking like they're making one runner out of 3.

Could it be that these unfit vehicles are the not bad enough to get the dismantling documents and then end up in these salesmen's yards?

Funny you mention this about the quality of the vehicle i.e. having numerous faults and making up a vehicle on the cheap as I was having this conversation with someone earlier. I believe they may be sourcing vehicles with good looking bodies but shot to pieces underneath, then buying some cheap parts to get them running before selling them off as something they are not at a massive profit

[BankFodder]

I haven't read through this thread too closely – but I gather that you came here on March 11 then you complained that a few weeks earlier you had bought a BMW and it broke down the same day. There's been an inspection and it's clear that the engine needs replacing. You have asserted your rights under the consumer rights act and now you are being led around by the nose – and from my brief scan of this thread, it seems to me that you are acquiescent in protracting this process.

I have no idea why you haven't issued a letter before action and you simply begin an action in 14 days. There is absolutely no need to consider mediation here or a motoring ombudsman or anything else. You have a clear statutory right. The only point of any kind of mediation would be to reach some kind of compromise where you would give up some of your rights in return for some additional benefit. For instance, if you agreed to buy another vehicle from them then that might be an interesting outcome to the mediation process. I can scarcely imagine you want to get involved with them any further.

The discussion on this thread is turning into some kind of wandering Facebook group (sorry) discussion and it's really not getting anywhere.

As I have said, you have a clear statutory right – you have served notice and you should now assert the right in court.

I don't see any reason why you shouldn't simply send them a letter of claim and at the expiry of day 14 you send them the glad tidings and set out your claim for a full refund and any reasonable cost you have incurred.

Have I missed something?

[BankFodder]

Incidentally, I would take a similarly no-nonsense line with the credit card company. I would make sure that they had copies of the letter of claim and I would make it clear to them that if I obtained my judgement against the dealer and there was the slightest difficulty in enforcing it, that I would then start a claim against them – the credit card company – if they started monkeying me around. I think I would also put them on notice that I would be considering suing them for unfair treatment under the COBS legislation.

You need to start taking control of this because you haven't done so far.

[Anidog1]

Just out of interest, have you physically gone back to visit HWM? My thinking is, would they really want someone to show up at their dealership complaining about being sold duff cars? The way I feel about them at the moment, I would gladly go and stand outside their premises and stop anyone driving in and advise them what a bunch of w*****s they're going to be dealing with!

[BankFodder]

Anidog1

it would be helpful if you could start your own thread and tell us your story. One of the things that helps to get these companies names up in the Google ranks is to have several separate threads running about them with their company name in the title. If you lump it all together in a single thread then Google doesn't find it is interesting.

Secondly, standing outside their premises isn't going to do much good. However, tweeting their name all over the place, writing Google reviews and also putting reviews upon trust pilot and then emailing them and showing them what is being said about them will much more likely make a kind of impression.

Please start your own thread

[Mottymotto1]

On ‎04‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 12:15, Anidog1 said:

Just out of interest, have you physically gone back to visit HWM? My thinking is, would they really want someone to show up at their dealership complaining about being sold duff cars? The way I feel about them at the moment, I would gladly go and stand outside their premises and stop anyone driving in and advise them what a bunch of w*****s they're going to be dealing with!

Hi, ive never physically gone back to the showroom (so sooooooo tempted to though) as I think this would harm court action and to be absolutely honest, the anger, frustration, problems and stress I have gone through over this issue I really don't think I could control myself, plus I live about 3.5-4 hours away by public transport. 

I would however love to picket outside especially on their busiest day, Saturday, deterring people from the business. 

I have a question though. I have never received the V5 so I don't even know if I am technically the owner of the vehicle!! As the car broke down on the day of purchase, Im guessing they didn't even send the paperwork. Does anyone know if this changes anything? Do I need to contact DVLA to see if I am the registered owner? Baring in mind I have rejected the vehicle??!?!

 

[BankFodder]

I think you are right to stay away because there is no point in having a row – although otherwise, it wouldn't harm your legal position.

In terms of ownership of the vehicle, you need to make sure that it's not in your name and un-insured because otherwise that could be another huge can of worms which you will find difficult to cope with.

[BankFodder]

2 minutes ago, Anidog1 said:

Woah, ok, so I have the V5C/2 with the top bit torn off. Sorry, and don't all please shoot me down - I am supposed to fill section 10 out? Over the page it says the registered keeper must tell DVLA of the sale/transfer. So, I don't have to do anything right?

 

 

 

Just now, Anidog1 said:

I have also received a response today which I have screenshot and will post on my thread, once I get home! You literally couldn't make it up!

It would be very helpful if you could ask these questions and generally continue your discussion on your own thread. It confuses when you hijack a thread – especially when you have a thread of your own going.

Please don't hijack this thread.

Thanks