Article 50 Discussion

[fletch70]

Banks should be made smaller - currently they are too large which is why governments panic and prop them up with Tax payer cash. Make them smaller and they can then be allowed to fail.

 

Thing is it was the government that allowed the merger of Natwest and RBS as well as the HBOS LTSB merger

 

Governments are IMO inherently corrupt and favour capitalism above all else , but you all know I am no fan of rampant capitalism - look how it worked for BHS

[fletch70]

I think the courts should be saying Well done Borris and David you acted in a democratic way and now It is lawful under our constitution and eu law to say we are now out of the EU.

 

 

The people have spoken ladies and gentleman

 

bankers4me

 

We are not out of the EU and wont be for at least 2 years -if ever

 

It still makes me sick to my stomach that people voted out , many without actually thinking of the potential consequences

[fletch70]

As far as I can see the words toy and Pram spring to mind.

 

Who are these other members btw?

[fletch70]

To be honest I think May's honeymoon is well and truly over. She needs to make some tough decisions. There is still a huge body of opinion , both Tory and non that want to remain . Some will think that the decision has been made but want to remain central to Europe if separate.

 

Personally I think she has a poisoned challace and will be unable to produce anything that remotely works. How much longer has this economy got to suffer, It seems that things fell off a cliff in 2008 and have never recovered, well at least the proletariat I.e the average working/retired/sick/unemployed/student etc. It seems that every move made has been aimed at causing least harm to the wealthiest.

There is no incentive to save, and I u deist and they want us to spend our money to boost the economy but we are storing up a bigger pensions problem fir the next generation.

 

Those who have savings that they live on are not eating into those savings because investment return is so low .

 

Employers are still giving no pay rises and in some cases pay cuts .

[fletch70]

There have been some interesting articles in the Guardian recently about Brexit , I do think Cit B is probably correct, a lot will depend on Italy and France.

 

My new worry is we have had two national disasters ( Brexit and Bake off) , what will be the 3rd? Maybe Trump winning in November - god help us all

[fletch70]

Noah

 

As an ardent remainer, I do think that you are being particularly unkind to the UK. The UK has some beautiful and historic countryside, some fantastic buildings and can be a wonderful place.

 

Having said that I am truly concerned about how we will survive the fallout of leaving the EU , come to that , will the EU survive in a recognisable form.

 

I do think that British experience and nature is different from mainland europe , maybe because we have not had constantly shifting borders, wars, occupations. Remember Italy and Germany are only 150 ish years old.

 

the debate about brexit will rumble on for years but everyone should remember a few things

 

The referendum was only ADVISORY - although maybe any government would be silly to go against it

Yes 52% voted to leave but 28% didn't vote, want they actually wanted we will never know

Out of the 52 % that voted leave , there may have been several reasons for the vote , but there again the remainers possibly had various reasons to want to remain

 

As the referendum was only advisory and we live in a representative and not direct democracy I think that Parliament must be involved in the negotiations because there is no mandate for either side to act in a particular way - that would come from a general election and manifesto promises.

[fletch70]

I think it says it all when watching this weeks Question Time and a young man who voted Brexit said that Trump was doing a lot for African Americans.

[fletch70]

That's a lot of mad emotion..

 

 

I reckon she must be pretty mad (angry)

[fletch70]

I have to say it didn't sound like a bit of a laugh

 

It sounded like a rant which is fair enough but it did not sound like a tongue in cheek rant

[fletch70]

If those of a more mature age did not understand the question and what the outcome would be, what hope will there be for those who only just reached voting age !

 

Sadly some young supposedly educated people did vote to leave and when you listen to them you hear their parents words coming out of their mouths. I say that because when challenged they can not back up their arguments.

[fletch70]

Hi Noah

I think the real ignorance here was King when they stated 'You and many others decided to sink your derriere on the sofa, watching Jeremy Kyle.'

 

Firstly , even though many may disagree, it is not a crime to watch Jeremy Kyle but more importantly King seemed to be suggesting, and I don't think it was for the first time that people that do not agree with him/her and somehow underclass **** . I have issues with that phrase on so many levels.

 

What has amazed me is how this issue of the EU transcends class, gender and culture and how quickly people forget that this country is a melting pot of beliefs and traditions and also if it were not for us opening our doors to refugees from parts of the world , some of these people would not be alive today.

 

It seems that significant numbers of people are racist and xenophobic

 

It seems that a significant number of people do not actually no what they voted for other than to leave the EU, I suspect that some believed Boris when he said that if we voted to leave the EU would roll over and give us what cameron had asked for - in reality , is it likely that they would set that precedent , leaving any other country free to do the same

 

It seems that a significant number of people do not understand the global economy or Britains place in it, we have a small manufacturing base so we have to import much of what we eat, drink and use. The £ has fallen meaning that inflation MUST rise on imports but also on many of the raw materials that we use in the minimal manufacturing base we still have. There is no option to buy british for many things.

 

Some people seem to say that the £ has been over valued , I doubt that - if you visit continental europe , it is true that even at !.40 many of the global brands are more expensive than here and not at the rate we have they are extortionate so I suspect that the rate of 1.40-1.50 is probably about the right rate for balance.

 

The EU is not perfect and is still an advocate of capitalism but I believe that we would be better off as a country to remain in it and try to reform it from within.

 

I think that the real consequences of leaving will not start to show themselves until next year with inflation rising steeply. I don't drive but I believe that petrol has increased very significantly in price.

 

When inflation rises , the people who will suffer the most will be the poorer people in society including pensioners

[fletch70]

During my lunch break I have just read the Daily Mail so I love on the planet called reality. Calais is moving to Kent and quite rightly. The French protect the British borders and the British expelled the French (would have to get visas).A very reasonable statements from Martin Shulz:'I refuse to imagine a Europe where lorries and hedge funds are free to cross borders but citizens are not.' So Brexiters will have to deal with thousands of illegal immigrants instead. AND all this for better future of your children.Bring it on then, I can't wait to see BRitain being taken from Europe and handed to whoever you welcome in Kent.

 

 

The daily mail reality

 

Oh give me a bleeding break , are you serious?

 

As for the french controls that is the opinion of one candidate for the french presidential Election or so I believe

[fletch70]

With regard to Ireland , it is interesting that the Brexit brigade are quite happy to say "Oh they will never close the border between North and South"

 

The problem is that the border between north and south will be no different than the border between any other part of the UK and the EU. They then go on to think that Ireland can stop people entering Eire if the intention is to move to the North, well that goes against the freedom of movement and Eire is a sovereign state so we can not tell them how to act.

 

Generally I fear how an exit can be negotiated within 2 years

[fletch70]

I know Brexit could take ten years but for it to take longer than 2 all 27 states have to agree. I fear they may not just out of spite and to stop others wanting to leave the club.

There are some really difficult constitutional problems to address such as NI . I imagine for the republic to have special dealings with the uk it would need treaty changes.

 

To steal a phrase

 

Forgive the idiots because they ain't got a clue what they've done

[fletch70]

Seems to me that many Brexiters have gone very quiet on the subject

[fletch70]

Maybe not you but the few people I know who own up are certainly more concerned now and would be seriously reconsidering if there was a new vote.

 

Do you really not see the damage that is being done and the hurdles that are there before we are dumped out let alone negotiate an exit?

[fletch70]

How could the Government tell us what was going to happen if the country voted leave?

 

 

Nobody knew the answer and nobody will for years to come - meaning that the people who voted leave did so without so much as a clue as to what they were getting for their vote.

 

Indeed no one knows what will happen but the leave vote lied and misrepresented the true position, obviously the most commonly quoted one was the £350 M going to the NHS.

 

having said that the remain campaign should have been all over that claim like a rash and ripped it apart for the blatant lie that it was.

 

The problem that we have now is that the armageddon that the remain voters were predicting did not happen overnight although the £ did crash. the implications of that are only just starting to really bite, fuel increasing in price, technology increasing in price, inflation beginning to creep up.

 

Equally the 'Utopia' that some of the leave campaigners claimed would happen has not happened and may never actually do so, it seems that the talk is becoming more about protecting british industry and investment with access to the single market as per the written guarantees to Nissan.

 

What may this mean?

 

Well who knows but maybe a situation when we are part of the single market with freedom of movement but not a member of the EU . To me that is having all of the responsibilities and non of the benefits

[fletch70]

I don't think anyone is not accepting that 37% of the electorate voted to leave but the politicians must take a significant amount of responsibility, it was them after all that set the referendum in motion and them that argued it so very badly.

 

I find it rather sad that people just do not understand how our democracy works, it is a First past the post representative dmocracy so in theory we should never have had a referendum, it's not how it works. Then they say it us U democratic to want to go against 37% but are quite happy to have a majority government with a much lower number of votes.

[fletch70]

Well I don't suppose we really expected any real clarity today as it was obvious that the losing side would appeal to the supreme court.

 

 

I am really not sure if its just me but it seems to me that there is being a slow move away from the rhetoric of hard brexit and more about possibilities of a successful negotiation on free trade which I think will involve free movement as well

 

There also seems to be stories of long years of uncertainty and volatility but it seems to me that all my politically aware life we have struggled from one crisis to another. The one thing we can be sure of is that the rich will still be richer and the poor will still be poorer- until of course the glorious day when I will deport all the Brexiters to mainland Europe

[fletch70]

It is a mess

 

But

We vote people in to represent us not to do as we tell them, well that is how it works

An example, supposedly the majority or people, well certainly the majority of daily wail readers support capital punishment but we do not punish our MP's for voting against it, time and time again.

 

I still believe however, that if faced with the myriad of possibilities available ranging from hard to soft to remain, the only consensus is actually to remain- the divisions amongst leavers are great , some voted as a protest, some voted for a hard brexit, some thought as Boris suggested that the EU would roll over and we could renegotiate, some wanted a Norway style deal and some voted because they are racists who though that the streets would suddenly turn white and speak English. Those sorts of opinions must be challenged with logical and coherent arguments .

 

I am also convinced that if the referendum was held today the outcome would be significantly different

[fletch70]

Seems Corbyn has firmly nailed his coffin shut. He really should just be honest about his ambivalence (at best) towards the EU.

[fletch70]

We could look at it this way, we knew mainly what our MPs views were on the EU before we voted them in last year and therefore it would be reasonable if they voted the same way, come a Parliamentary vote.

 

There is of course the possibility that some may vote tactically I.e SNP members voting for Brexit if they thought it could help independence.

 

I do have one question for those that shriek about loss of democracy ,even in 2014 a you gov poll suggested that capital punishment was still favoured by a majority who expressed a preference however the fact that MPs have repeatedly voted to keep the ban has not been some democratic crisis.

[fletch70]

This really is a sad conversation. All the Judges have decided is that Parliament must vote on the issue. How they vote is a completely different matter.

 

It is against every value that we uphold in this country to say the courts should not consider , interpret and apply the law.

 

If we are going to do away with the courts why not just hand out a few brown shirts and let thugs like Farage do what they want.

 

Clearly I am an advocate of remaining but it seems that u less something major happens we will leave. It has to be decided on what terms we leave, all these people that are moaning about the courts , how would you have that decided? The referendum did not specify the manner of leaving or what our relationship with Europe should be, this has to be decided by someone and in our democratic crack that should be Parliament.

 

Just for info, Parliaments are elected for 5 year terms and most of us have never had a government (except the coalition) with a mandate from the majority of voters let alone the electorate.

 

I am finding the ignorance of many , on both sides, frustrating but this referendum was only ever advisory , we should all have been aware of that before we voted.

 

By the way, recent research suggests that should there be another referendum the result would be different.i.e remain would win, partly because some of those who did not vote who now vote to remain.

[fletch70]

Let's have unlimited referendums until the remoaners win.

Then all would be perfectly legal, transparent, honest and democratic...

 

No, sorry I have to say this: the imposition of the minority's agenda is not democracy in any way shape or form.

Even the most perverted mind knows that when the minority rules over the majority of people it's not a case of democracy.

It's dictatorship, not better than the very same ones the minority condemns to show that they are good people.

Show your real face: You are bullies and wannabe dictators who do not accept democracy.

Instead of being hypocrites, admit that you don't give a damn about democracy and it's your way or no way.

At least you would be coherent.

 

King , may I suggest you look at post war election data. Certainly for many years, the winning party have not won a majority of the vote. Does that make them dictators? I haven't hear you complain about that.

[fletch70]

As we were led into the EU originally under false pretence, there can be no divorce, the whole sorry state is a s.cam and morally is null and void

 

In what way were we led into the EU under false pretences?

 

We joined the common market and that was then, we then let Thatcher and Major move us into the EU. They were our elected leaders . Maggie was an ardent supporter of the EU and it's neo liberal free trade.