Hhmmmm.....Very Interesting

[boxer64]

Hi Boxer, Have just tried it and the download still works so I would give it another go.

Its not really a template though and more of a "This is how i did it" type thing. It can be modified for anyones claim if you play around with a bit but is quite time consuming in the amount of data you have to enter. Im sure there are better ways to do it but the calculations involved are far beyond my simple mind to grasp

 

skb

hi skbuncks, sorry to sound stupid, but i can't see how to download the ppi file from the fileshare home page, the file details seem to be grayed out unable to click on them.

 

also in relation to your total charge for credit question earlier, check the Consumer Credit Act 74, Sect 20 Total Charge for Credit.Sect 60 Form and Content of agrements Sect 64 Duty To Give Notice of Cancelallation Rights Sect 97 Duty to Give Infomation

thanks boxer

[marcelle]

Questions - The burden of proof

 

My first graduate loan PPI was obviously missold as it was not fit for purpose - ie I was on a temporary working contract and when I lost my job and tried to claim I was told I they wouldnt pay out because temporary contracts were not covered by the insurance. On taking out the loan the bank was aware that I was on a temporary contract.

For subsequent loans I was told no PPI then no loan - how do I prove this as its my word against theirs??????

 

Question - Contracts

 

Does the loan contract have to state the total amount payable under the agreement i.e the loan + PPI + interest???

 

skb

 

 

It's interesting you say the PPI do not cover for temporary contracts as I took mine out and I was on a temporary contract... in fact I still am. So if I'm not covered what's the point in paying out the extra money per month??? I've been reading about people trying to cancel their PPI but to no avail is this true before I phone my bank and cancel it?

 

Skb, I just found your post and I am looking at it closely as I can relate to a lot of your stuff.... I'm in the process of sending my SAR off to RBOS to see what's up with my case.

 

Is it just me or do the banks not send you statements once in a while to let you know how much you've paid, etc.?? I have never had anything from them since the day I took the loan out!!

[skbuncks]

Whether your covered whilst on a temporary contract will depend upon the wording in the terms and conditions of the PPI policy. Certainly in the case of lloyds PPI you are not covered

 

Is it just me or do the banks not send you statements once in a while to let you know how much you've paid, etc.?? I have never had anything from them since the day I took the loan out!!

 

LLoyds have never sent out statements, but you can obtain a current balance of the loan via their internet banking, am unsure if this is something RBOS offer

[marcelle]

Thanks skbuncks, i'll check with rbos!

[boxer64]

Hi Boxer, Have just tried it and the download still works so I would give it another go.

Its not really a template though and more of a "This is how i did it" type thing. It can be modified for anyones claim if you play around with a bit but is quite time consuming in the amount of data you have to enter. Im sure there are better ways to do it but the calculations involved are far beyond my simple mind to grasp

 

skb

finaly downloaded the spreed sheat thanks, iv'e just sent out my non compliance / prelim Claim letters to halifax and barclys, and prelim Claim / LBA letters to Abbey, so im just going to work out my ppi acconts using varios spreadsheet templates,

Thanks again

[skbuncks]

Update:

 

Am still chasing lloyds up for missing info about first graduate loan. They finally got back to me with some fob off about needing more info from me in order to chase it up, id already given them the dam loan account number twice. So sent them what they need and am wating again. God but they annoy me

 

skb

[skbuncks]

Anyone know who underwrote lloyds insurance from 1999 to the present. Am going to send them a SAR for all details they hold too, will be interesting to see just how much the insurance actually cost

 

skb

[reidnet]

I would presume it would have been their own Insurance, Lloyds Insurance Services. I would be surprised if they would have had it underwritten by anyone else, of course using in house Insurance would also invrease their Profits etc..lol

 

You can try contacting this address and see if they can help out..

 

Complaints Department

Lloyd's

One Lime Street

London

EC3M 7HA

 

Tel. 020 7327 5693

Fax. 020 7327 5225

 

E-Mail [email protected]

 

Hope that Helps.

 

Good Luck

 

Ian

[rks99]

The spreadsheets i used for my calculations can be found here

 

PPI for posting web.xls

 

skb

 

I really would love to get some figures for my loan/ppi. Tried this link but it says'file not found' and I get re-directed to the home page. I wonder what I'm not doing right?

[lolia]

Hello

Just subscribing. Am currently claiming for bank charges and intend to look into ppi as I was misold one and have been trying to cancel for the past 3 months without success. Am paying £78 a month just for the ppi.

Good luck.

[boxer64]

Hello

Just subscribing. Am currently claiming for bank charges and intend to look into ppi as I was misold one and have been trying to cancel for the past 3 months without success. Am paying £78 a month just for the ppi.

Good luck.

Hi

lolia recntly had my mis selling complaint unheald by the HALIFAX, they offered me new loan without PPI, and refund of premiums on final account of existing loan, but im still unemployed after they declined claim made on existing PPI, and would be unable to pay new loan.

contemplating how to get compensated overall, haven't signed any thing yet, but the admittion of mis selling is a start

Anybody with advice please feel free to respond.

[skbuncks]

Finally I have some of the missing data I requested in nvember last year, namely the rebate amounts from each loan. Lloyds are however unable to supply the loan agreement from the first loan as its from too long ago. Strange as I thought they had to keep stuff for six years and loan wasnt closed until April 2002. Still they have said in their latest letter that they will be supplying a transaction list for the loan shortly. Im gunna ive them a week then proceed anyway cos im sick of waiting.

 

I have know been able to finalise the figures for grad loans 2 and 3 and select loan 1.

Alos looking back over my employment history I was in temporary employment (six month contracts) up until July 2002 so grad loan 1,2 and 3 PPI policies were mis-sold on the basis that my employment circumstance immediately excluded me from cover.

The Lloyds TSB Loan Protection Policy Document has this to say on exclusions to the Policy:

You will not be covered for any period of unemployment which:

Immediately follows a period of casual or temporary work, or

Is normal in your line of work, or

Results from the end of a fixed term contract, except where you have:

· Worked continuously for the same employer for at least 24 months, or

· Been on a contract for at least 12 months and had that contract renewed at least once

 

[skbuncks]

Tables

 

 

 

 

[skbuncks]

Some explanatory notes on the above tables.

 

1) I calculated interest seperately and on a daily basis for the loan amount and the PPI amount.

To convert from APR to daily interest I used the following formula:

 

Daily rate = ((1+APR)^(1/365))-1

 

2) Outstanding Balance - This is what I calculate the outstanding balance to have been for loan and PPI when the loan was paid off. Settlement figure include the early settle fee which is subtracted 3 lines below. The variance is the difference between my figures and banks figures. An exact match would be very hard to come by

 

ie loan 3: loan balance of £3500.48 + PPI balance of £709 = Total £4209.5

loan 3: settlement figure of £ 4061.91 which is £4009.74 minus the ERC. If you add the rebate to this (which for loan 3 was paid into the loan to reduce the settlement amount) this equals £4215.18.

£4218.18 - £4209.48 = £4.8 so theres a difference of £4.8 between my calcs and theres over a 39 month period.

 

3) Insurance to claim back is calculated as follows (again for loan 3)

Total insurance premiums paid + difference between rebate and settlement figure for the PPI.

 

ie loan 3: £1347.84 + (709-205.44) = £1851.40

 

4) The calcs for select loan are a bit more complicated as they continued to take payments for several months after the loan was actually paid off. They assured me at the time that they would balance the books correctly but, well, they didnt.

 

As a matter of interest lloyds base their rebates (roughly) on the following table:

 

Months into loan 0 percentage rebate 100

Months into loan 12 percentage rebate 65

Months into loan 18 percentage rebate 49

Months into loan 24 percentage rebate 34

Months into loan 36 percentage rebate 14

Months into loan 48 percentage rebate 4

Months into loan 60 percentage rebate 0

 

 

Hope this is clear lol

 

Current total to claim = £2943.03 and still to add in grad loan 1

 

skb

 

 

[skbuncks]

Graduate loan 1 comes to £444.49 to claim.

 

Grand total = £3387.52

[skbuncks]

As the issues surrounding the miss-selling for the garduate loans are different from for the select loan im keeping them separate.

 

Prelim for Graduate loans sent recorded delivery on monday for grand total of £2595.75. I am a bit worried though since I live in sheffield and the letter was posted by my GF at a post office in parkgate, rotherham on monday morning. Several hours later said post office, along with most of yorkshire, was several feet underwater and tracking system is showing item as yet undelivered. Fingers crossed my prelim is not another victim of the great yorkshire flood.

 

skb

[skbuncks]

Copy of prelim

 

Date: 16th June 2007.

Dear Sir/Madam.

Re: Complaint and request for return of Payment Protection Insurance premium

Graduate Loan Account Number: xxxxxxxx

Graduate Loan Account Number: xxxxxxxx

Graduate Loan Account Number: xxxxxxxx

I am writing to request the repayment of monies paid by myself to LloydsTSB for PPI policies on a number of loans which were mis-sold (loan account numbers as above detailed above).

At the time of undertaking the credit agreements, the agent acting on your behalf misled me into procuring Payment Protection Insurance (PPI) as part of the overall credit bargain.

The Insurance Policies sold to myself were not defined nor explained and were not "optional" as laid out in the said agreements, as I was informed that the Insurance was part and parcel of having a loan and that without it the loan would not be approved.

Your agents misrepresented the fact that the insurance was compulsory and due to inexperience in financial matters at the time this was taken at face value.; I felt that there was no choice but to agree to the credit bargain.

I was employed on a temporary basis at the time of taking out each of the loans and therefore not eligible for any payments from the PPI in the event of cessation of employment or illness. My situation was known to the person who sold me the loans, however he/she did not point out that I would never be able to benefit from the insurance sold as my employment circumstances immediately excluded me from cover.

I consider that your representations that the PPI plan was required, reasonable and suitable to my needs were deceptive, and as such I was deceived into agreeing to pay the insurance.

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves with reasonable care and skill and in a manner which complies with UK law.

 

Full details of my reasoning behind why I believe the PPI policies were mis-sold are attached to this letter.

You will be aware of the recent government intervention on this matter informing the FSA and OFT to make significant changes to the manner in which personal payment protection is sold. In particular your attention is drawn to FSA principles for business:

Principle 1: Integrity: A firm must conduct its business with integrity.

Principle 2: Skill, care and diligence: A firm must conduct its business with due skill, care and diligence.

Principle 3: Management and control: A firm must take reasonable care to organise and control its affairs responsibly and effectively, with adequate risk management systems.

Principle 5: Market conduct: A firm must observe proper standards of market conduct.

Principle 6: Customers' interests: A firm must pay due regard to the interests of its customers and treat them fairly.

Principle 7: Communications with clients: A firm must pay due regard to the information needs of its clients, and communicate information to them in a way which is clear, fair and not misleading.

Principle 9: Customers: relationships of trust: A firm must take reasonable care to ensure the suitability of its advice and discretionary decisions for any customer who is entitled to rely upon its judgment.

In view of the way I was mis-sold this very expensive insurance, I am hereby giving you 14 days notice to reply positively or refund the whole of each premium paid, including interest, forthwith.

What I require

 

Partial rebates were received upon early repayment of the loans. I now require full repayment of the outstanding paid premiums as detailed below:

Graduate Loan Account Number 30975100738128: £429.11

Graduate Loan Account Number 100009943673: £344.91

Graduate Loan Account Number 100016734138: £1821.73

Total: £2595.75

In order to calculate the amount of PPI paid on each loan and the amount received in any rebate I made an SAR request on 19th November 2006 for the relevant information. In direct breach of Data Protection Act principles and despite several follow up letters it was not until the 12th June 2007 that all information had been received. A full breakdown of each loan is attached together with my methodology of calculating the PPI which is reclaimed here. If you wish to dispute the amounts then you must do so by supplying evidence to the contrary.

My targets to resolve this matter

 

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you will prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets or proceed to court.

 

I will give you 14 days to reply to me accepting unconditionally my request for £2595.75 repayment and letting me know a date by which I will receive this.

 

For the avoidance of doubt if in 14 days you have not replied positively or supplied a full refund, I will issue a Letter Before Action before commencing a claim against you with the county courts. Additionally I will immediately lodge a complaint against you with the Financial Services Authority.

 

After that there will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a claim at the expiry of the deadline.

 

I trust that will not be necessary and I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours Sincerely

Gary

[skbuncks]

Attached reasonings

 

My Particular Circumstances Regarding Employment.

 

 

I was initially employed by Securicor on a temporary contract from September 1999. This contract was renewed in or around April of 2000 until June 2000 whereupon it came to an unexpected end, I was consequently unemployed from June 2000. At this point I made a claim on the Insurance Policy which was turned down on the basis that my type of employment was not covered.

 

I was then unemployed up until 18th September of 2000 whereupon I again commenced work on a temporary contract for SRG LabStaff with a maximum term of six months . I commenced a second such contract in April of 2001, a third September 2001 and again in April 2002, this final contract was brought to an end early after 3 months. On the 1st July 2002 I commenced full time permanent employment.

It was totally unconscionable that any temporary contract I was employed upon would be renewed at the end of its term.

My employment circumstances were made known to your branch agent at the time of each application yet despite your duty of care to act responsibly these ineffective and unsuitable policies were still sold to me.

 

My Reasoning behind why I believe the PPI was mis-sold.

 

I now realize following the recent OFT and FSA investigations, that you mis-sold me these insurance policies, which I did not want and did not need. I believe I signed up for the insurance under economic duress and that your actions were unconscionable.

 

I contend that:

 

1. Under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 I was misled and false information was given during the interview process on the day the agreement was made:

 

“If the debtor under a debtor-creditor-supplier agreement falling within section 12(b) or © has, in relation to a transaction financed by the agreement, any claim against the supplier in respect of a misrepresentation or breach of contract, he shall have a like claim against the creditor, who, with the supplier, shall accordingly be jointly and severally liable to the debtor”.

 

2. The Insurances sold to myself were not defined nor explained and were not "optional" as laid out in the said agreements, indeed I was informed that the Insurance was part and parcel of having a loan. Your in branch agents misrepresented the fact that the insurance was compulsory and due to my inexperience in financial matters at the time this was taken at face value. I believed I had no choice but to agree to the PPI in order to obtain a loan.

 

3. The PPI section of the contract was filled in prior to my receiving and signing the contract(s) and was therefore not ‘optional’.

 

4. As the Insurance was in fact a charge for credit on the Conditional Sale Agreement, it could not also be part of the credit on the additional insurances agreement as under section 9 (4) CCA credit charges cannot be treated as credit even where time is given for their payments.

 

5. If the Insurance was not a charge for credit in respect of the Conditional Sale Agreement, as it was compulsory, it was a charge for credit on the additional insurances and under section 9 (4) CCA credit charges cannot be treated as credit

 

6. For the reasons stated in either (4) or (5) above, the agreement for additional insurances failed to state the correct amount of credit and did not comply with paragraph 2, schedule 6, which requires that regulated agreements contain as a prescribed term stating the correct amount of credit.

 

7. The agreement for additional insurances was therefore improperly executed under section 61 (1)(a) of the CCA.

 

 

8. The Insurance was mis-sold, as it was not appropriate to my employment circumstances i.e. I was employed on a temporary contract basis which was not covered by the insurance policy. The Lloyds TSB Loan Protection Policy Document has this to say on exclusions to the Policy:

 

You will not be covered for any period of unemployment which:

i. Immediately follows a period of casual or temporary work, or

ii. Is normal in your line of work, or

iii. Results from the end of a fixed term contract, except where you have:

a. Worked continuously for the same employer for at least 24 months, or

b. Been on a contract for at least 12 months and had that contract renewed at least once.

 

In response to this I was employed on temporary contracts, had not been with the same employer for 24 months or more and had not been on a contract for at least 12 months.

I was therefore never able to benefit from the insurance sold as my employment circumstances immediately excluded me from cover.

 

9. I contend that your agent was fully aware of my circumstances and fraudulently / mistakenly passed incorrect details to the insurer to obtain these same Insurances from the insurer. The believe this grossly contravenes ordinary principles of fair dealing.

 

10. Under the misrepresentation Act 1967 Section 2(1) damages to the sum of the monies paid are hereby claimed.

 

I was informed on taking out Graduate loans 2 and 3, which were to refinance the proceeding loans, had to be taken on the same terms and conditions as the first.

 

 

I also attached to this 18 pages of spreadsheets detailing the schedule of PPI, Loan payments and interest on a day to day basis

 

skb

[reidnet]

Nice letter, Obviously you have done a lot of reading and research too.. Well done.. and Good Luck..

 

Ian

[SteveH2508]

Quick point on my way out to work -

 

A graduate loan is a debtor-creditor agreement not a debtor-creditor-supplier agreement so S75 does not apply. I think you will need to remove that section. (IMHO)

[skbuncks]

Quick point on my way out to work -

 

A graduate loan is a debtor-creditor agreement not a debtor-creditor-supplier agreement so S75 does not apply. I think you will need to remove that section. (IMHO)

 

Not sure I agree totally with you on that one, but then I do find the act to be very confusing. Too late anyway as letter was delivered today. Still need to clear this up though before LBA stage I think.

 

From what i can gather a graduate loan is a multiple agreement as different aspects of the loan fall within different sections of the Act. Namely the cash loan, PPI loan and loan to pay off existing debt. I have defined each aspect of the loan as follows, are may or may not be right so feel free to shoot me down in flames.

 

Cash loan:

Unrestricted-use credit under section 11(2)

Debtor-creditor agreement under section 13©

 

PPI Loan:

Restricted-use credit under section 11(1)(b). (This assumes that the supplier of the insurance is a separate body to the supplier of credit, which I believe they are).

Debtor-creditor-supplier agreement under section 12(b).

Loan to pay off existing debts:

Restricted-use credit under section 11(1)©

Debtor-creditor agreement under section 13(b)

 

So the cash loan and any loan to pay off existing debts is a debtor-creditor agreement. However the PPI loan is a Debtor-creditor-supplier agreement.

 

Section 11(b) to finance a transaction between the debtor and a person (the “supplier”) other than the creditor, or

 

Section 12(b) a restricted-use credit agreement which falls within section 11(1)(b) and is made by the creditor under pre-existing arrangements, or in contemplation of future arrangements, between himself and the supplier, or

the pre-existing arrangements are by virtue of Section 187(1) and 187(5).

 

This is my take on it anyway and allows use of section 75.

 

Something which has always confused me is where does it actually say in the CCA that you cannot miss-sell PPI? I've also looked to see what other sections of the act deal with misrepresentation or miss-selling but cant seem to find any - do they exist?

 

skb

[skbuncks]

For reference the relevant sections of CCA

75 Liability of creditor for breaches by supplier

(1) If the debtor under a debtor-creditor-supplier agreement falling within section 12(b) or © has, in relation to a transaction financed by the agreement, any claim against the supplier in respect of a misrepresentation or breach of contract, he shall have a like claim against the creditor, who, with the supplier, shall accordingly be jointly and severally liable to the debtor.

11 Restricted-use credit and unrestricted-use credit

(1) A restricted-use credit agreement is a regulated consumer credit agreement—

(a) to finance a transaction between the debtor and the creditor, whether forming part of that agreement or not, or

(b) to finance a transaction between the debtor and a person (the “supplier”) other than the creditor, or

© to refinance any existing indebtedness of the debtor’s, whether to the creditor or another person,

and “restricted-use credit” shall be construed accordingly.

(2) An unrestricted-use credit agreement is a regulated consumer credit agreement not falling within subsection (1), and “unrestricted-use credit” shall be construed accordingly.

(3) An agreement does not fall within subsection (1) if the credit is in fact provided in such a way as to leave the debtor free to use it as he chooses, even though certain uses would contravene that or any other agreement.

(4) An agreement may fall within subsection (1)(b) although the identity of the supplier is unknown at the time the agreement is made.

12 Debtor-creditor-supplier agreements

A debtor-creditor-supplier agreement is a regulated consumer credit agreement being—

(a) a restricted-use credit agreement which falls within section 11(1)(a), or

(b) a restricted-use credit agreement which falls within section 11(1)(b) and is made by the creditor under pre-existing arrangements, or in contemplation of future arrangements, between himself and the supplier, or

© an unrestricted-use credit agreement which is made by the creditor under pre-existing arrangements between himself and a person (the “supplier”) other than the debtor in the knowledge that the credit is to be used to finance a transaction between the debtor and the supplier.

13 Debtor-creditor agreements

A debtor-creditor agreement is a regulated consumer credit agreement being—

(a) a restricted-use credit agreement which falls within section 11(1)(b) but is not made by the creditor under pre-existing arrangements, or in contemplation of future arrangements, between himself and the supplier, or

(b) a restricted-use credit agreement which falls within section 11(1)©, or

© an unrestricted-use credit agreement which is not made by the creditor under pre-existing arrangements between himself and a person (the “supplier”) other than the debtor in the knowledge that the credit is to be used to finance a transaction between the debtor and the supplier.

187 Arrangements between creditor and supplier

(1) A consumer credit agreement shall be treated as entered into under pre-existing arrangements between a creditor and a supplier if it is entered into in accordance with, or in furtherance of, arrangements previously made between persons mentioned in subsection (4)(a), (b) or ©.

(2) A consumer credit agreement shall be treated as entered into in contemplation of future arrangements between a creditor and a supplier if it is entered into in the expectation that arrangements will subsequently be made between persons mentioned in subsection (4)(a), (b) or © for the supply of cash, goods and services (or any of them) to be financed by the consumer credit agreement.

(3) Arrangements shall be disregarded for the purposes of subsection (1) or (2) if—

(a) they are arrangements for the making, in specified circumstances, of payments to the supplier by the creditor, and

(b) the creditor holds himself out as willing to make, in such circumstances, payments of the kind to suppliers generally.

(3A) Arrangements shall also be disregarded for the purposes of subsections (1) and (2) if they are arrangements for the electronic transfer of funds from a current account at a bank within the meaning of the Bankers’ Books Evidence Act 1879.

(4) The persons referred to in subsections (1) and (2) are—

(a) the creditor and the supplier;

(b) one of them and an associate of the other’s;

© an associate of one and an associate of the other’s.

(5) Where the creditor is an associate of the supplier’s, the consumer credit agreement shall be treated, unless the contrary is proved, as entered into under pre-existing arrangements between the creditor and the supplier.

[skbuncks]

Received a letter y/day from lloyds, they have received my complaint and are very sorry that I am unhappy . They are looking into the issues I have raised and will get back to me as soon as possible. Better be quick cos my fingers are itching to send off LBA

 

skb

[skbuncks]

Received another letter from lloydstsb insurance over the weekend. They need another 4 weeks to look into the issues raised in my complaint. As im skint and cant afford to take them to court just yet I shall be giving them their four weeks

 

skb

[kennythecelt]

Good luck. You have put a lot of effort into this and my fingers are crossed for you!! Keep going, watching with interest!