Paypal -Some advice needed

[fergusmckay]

I'd REALLY like some advice on what - if anything - I can do about a situation I have with Paypal. - please bear with me as it's a long(ish) story

 

About a month ago I agreed to help out a guy I've done some business with. He had a paypal account but said that the bank account it withdrew to was a joint account and he had split up with the other holder. Therefore he asked if he could instead send money to my paypal account - I'd withdraw it and give him the cash - he offered me a commission for providing the service.

 

He sells SKY equipment and I checked out that he has a bonafide company and address before agreeing.

 

I withdrew the cash - as agreed (about £1600) and thought nothing more of it, and my £160 came in very handy.

 

HOWEVER on friday morning I checked my paypal account and found that Paypal had removed the funds from two of these transactions - one from the 11th October and one from the 25th October - totalling £1200.

 

I obviously can't afford this - my paypal account is now £900 in negative and I can't withdraw anything that comes in (a real problem for me as ebay is my only income)

When I finally managed to speak to someone at paypal they told me that - if the sender of the money has acted illegally (i.e. the funds came from an unauthorised source) I have no recourse - just have to like it or lump it.

 

How can this be right????????

 

I have done nothing wrong or illegal - and have used Paypal because they're supposed to be secure and safe. Surely they should a) be insured against this type of thing, b) get the money back from HIM not me, c) have investigated it at the time - not 1 month after I've withdrawn the cash???

 

I now can't get hold of the guy - and have spoken to the police but - as usual got a cs number and nothing more

 

Any advice on whether, and how, I can reclaim the money from them / him etc would be gratefully received

[alvinlwh]

I have done nothing wrong or illegal - and have used Paypal because they're supposed to be secure and safe. Surely they should a) be insured against this type of thing, b) get the money back from HIM not me, c) have investigated it at the time - not 1 month after I've withdrawn the cash???

 

You could be receiving or handling stolen goods (or money in this case) and that makes you as guilty as the thief. I had learnt this the hard way.

 

Paypal have NO protection for the seller in cases of chargeback. I think Nochex does offer that.

[buzby]

Oh dear - this shows the problems of being an intermediery, and this is also a well-known [problem] that ensures a high level of protection for the [EDIT] for only a 10% cut in his revenue. All he needed to do is use cloned or stolen card numbers easily obtainable from the web, Paypal processes them in good faith, but if reverersed - you take the fall. You don't have any claim against Paypal, only the guy who set up the [problem] and snared you into it - from what you've outlined, the [problem] was centered on you, everything else was just window dressing. I think you'll aware now you don't do this kind of 'favour' for anyone, as you leave yourself open to accusations of money laundering, even if you didn't know.

[alvinlwh]

as you leave yourself open to accusations of money laundering, even if you didn't know.

 

I was informed by the police that even if I say I do not know, it will NOT stand up in court (for stolen goods not money laundering). Anyone can confirm this? Luckily it never went anywhere near court for me, but its a £320 lesson.

[fergusmckay]

Thanks for the replies.

 

In that case, I guess - as I have his address, business details and his bank account details - I should be able to get onto him in order to make a claim against him and get him prosecuted?

 

I'll have a go at that - Still feeling very aggrieved that paypal don't take any responsibility for this.

 

One more point is that I made the last payment to him by bank transfer - I know the funds haven't yet hit his account - and my bank (over telephone banking) say they can't do anything (for "can't" - read "won't").

 

Surely there must be a way that the banks can call back funds in this case? Or am I simply up s... creek without a paddle?

[buzby]

Firstly it would not be up to the police, but the CPS to decide whether to prosecute. The chances of this happening for such a small amount are slim, but the risk remains, and it is often better to let the Banks carry the risk than be a part-time banker" and carry the risk of fraud by yourself.

 

I donl't know why you feel aggrieved at Paypal, these reversals can only be undertaken when they are told of fraud - so why should they be liable for card numbers provided by your associate? One reversal might have been an accident, but if they've all gone that way you've been set up.

 

As to the Bank Transfer, if you sent the money correctly, you cannot recall it unless there has been an error in that it is being credited to the wrong account. You certainly can challenge the bank to reverse it pointing out the earlier frauds, but as you found they might not be happy unless you sign an indemnity. Call them again and say you will be prepared to do this. The reasoning for this process being difficult to reverse is based on trust - once funds are delivered to the distant bank account, they cannot be taken back, it's not like a direct debit which operates under different rules. Imagine the furore if you sold something, waiting until the funds arrived in your account, you handed over the goods because of this, then found the purchaser reversed the credit? Doesn't even bear thinking about.

 

You couln't get the guy prosecuted, as this is a civil matter, but there's nothing stopping you taking him to the Small Claims court to get all your money back - assuming he has assets you could chase if he doesn't pay.

 

 

*possible misprint

[alvinlwh]

Firstly it would not be up to the police, but the CPS to decide whether to prosecute. The chances of this happening for such a small amount are slim, but the risk remains, and it is often better to let the Banks carry the risk than be a part-time banker" and carry the risk of fraud by yourself.

 

Yes, but it is also up to the police if to bring it up to CPS or not.

[buzby]

This additional step doesn't invalidate the main thrust of the argument, you've got to get two loads of decision-makers to decide a common action, not an easy task at the best of times, however processing funds for a third party that is using dodgey credit card numbers is not something any right-minded person would want to be associated with.

[fergusmckay]

However processing funds for a third party that is using dodgy credit card numbers is not something any right-minded person would want to be associated with.

Well - yes - thankyou. However I obviously didn't know he was using a dodgy credit card (and still don't 100% know it as the investigation is still ongoing). I may have been naive but I don't think that's unique to me, or else these scams wouldn't get off the ground in the first place.

 

Though I'm prepared to accept that there will be posts pointing out that I haven't been as savvy as I might have been (if I hadn't needed the money so badly) when I post with this particular query, the phrase "shutting the door after the horse has bolted" springs to mind. What I really was asking was how would I go about getting the horse bacK???

 

With regard to why I feel aggrieved at paypal - there's a few reasons.

 

Firstly: If this is a "well known [problem]" then I'd have thought there would be protection against it - in the form of insurance etc. Paypal have a lot of peoples money and are making a healthy profit from it - they should have responsibilities towards their customers - however naive.

 

Second - why not contact me for information rather than just informing me that they've taken money back with no explanation?

 

Thirdly - Why has it taken a month to instigate this investigation - long after I would have processed the transaction - whatever it had been?

 

And finally - They have address details, bank details and contact details for the guy who has committed the fraud and who has been the recipint of the money - they are also able to put MY account 900 into the red - why are the funds not recoverable from him? If I paid for a motorbike (for instance) with a didgy card and was found out - would the money be recovered from the bike shop or from me?

 

HE (allegedly) stole it - and HE has it - HE should give it back!

 

Anyway - I take on board what's been said and will continue to try and get my cash back! thanks for the advice and I'll post if I get anywhere with my chasing.

[alvinlwh]

Firstly: If this is a "well known [problem]" then I'd have thought there would be protection against it - in the form of insurance etc. Paypal have a lot of peoples money and are making a healthy profit from it - they should have responsibilities towards their customers - however naive.

 

Well you have thought incorrectly. If you read the terms in Paypal, you would realised that the seller (or person getting the money) is the least protected. For example if you actually sent something, and the buyer claims it had not arrived, you MUST produce the recorded or special delivery number. Prove of delivery will not work. I am not saying you are wrong here but I myself had been pretty with Paypal/eBay before too.

 

Second - why not contact me for information rather than just informing me that they've taken money back with no explanation?

 

Have you actually tried communicating with Paypal/eBay? They don't care! They are just out to make money. Have a root around the eBay forums and you will see! People are with Paypal/eBay on their own forums!

 

Thirdly - Why has it taken a month to instigate this investigation - long after I would have processed the transaction - whatever it had been?

 

I wouldn't know my card had been used without my permission until my next statement arrive, and that takes a month (depending on the date when it was used). Only then can I alert my bank/card issuer. Unless I check my credit card account online everyday that is.

 

And finally - They have address details, bank details and contact details for the guy who has committed the fraud and who has been the recipint of the money - they are also able to put MY account 900 into the red - why are the funds not recoverable from him? If I paid for a motorbike (for instance) with a didgy card and was found out - would the money be recovered from the bike shop or from me?

 

Yes you maybe able to get your money back, but from him not Paypal. It is your account and you allowed him to use it. Therefore it is an agreement between you and him (even to the point that the court would say you are in it with him! Be warned here!) so therefore it is up to you, not Paypal to get it back.

 

It sucks, I know, to be played out by a person who you thought is your friend. But like I said, you thought wrong. I know that feeling too. I myself is also looking into ways of getting my money back from an ex-friend. Therefore I wish you luck in your case. Do post on what goes on next.