WilliamsSJ vs. NatWest

[WilliamsSJ]

Hi,

 

This is my first post and to be quite honest I'm terrified of the prospect of taking on the extra stress. Its already enough having to cope with life at the arse end of an overdraft!!! But, motivation spurred by £38 charges for going over my limit by 52p and returned DD's that have been cancelled many times at both ends, has lead me to this place in search of a slice of justice pie!!!!

 

I've stopped using my N.W graduate account (which is just over the overdraft limit due to charges) and now only use my NW savings account to pay cheques etc. into. I've also opened another account with a Building Society for my bills and main banking.

 

I sent off a copy of the letter "Subject Access Request" requesting my statements and manual intervention charges on the 3rd of November. I sent it recorded/signed for and with the £10 fee...

 

So here I go.....Into the gates of the gladiatorial arena ready to do battle with Golliath Wish me luck!!!!!

[WilliamsSJ]

I've now recieved my statements from NatWest. After several days of trying to log back on to this site, i've finally managed. And now I've just got to negotiate the maze of threads and links and thi and that to find out what I do next.. I think there's a spreadsheet involved there somewhere and some calcualting etc etc..... ???

 

I'm really not enjoying the layout of this site, or the log in saga, although I am hugely grateful of the effort and the information provided. Thanks folks!!!

[natwesttookmymoney]

Hi, SJ, and welcome. We all sympathise with your early experiences: we all went through it and it gets easier, let me assure you! I think I'm not alone in finding my own ways to navigate quickly - I've no doubt you will, too.

 

Anyway, to make the process easier, read the FAQs here:

FAQs :::::::::::::::::::::::::- PLEASE READ THESE FIRST!!! -:::::::::::::::::

Also a good idea to read the cases library and pick out what you want and save it to a folder in your computer.

Use the site's templates, modified to your circumstances. It's here Bank Templates Library .

If you need to modify anything, or think you should, then feel free to ask. One thing I would modify is the bit in the preliminary letter where it says something about the Bank being 'my fiduciary'. It isn't but it does have a fiduciary responsibility to you. Remove their opportunity to snort and giggle!

You can find the spreadsheets here Vampiress's Chambers . You can either use them on-line or download them and use Excel.

 

If you can download your statements from the on-line banking site, then it makes things easier, BTW.

 

Hope that helps - feel free to ask if you need anything.

 

Best wishes

[jcasey2408]

WOW!!! you recieved your statements really quick. Reading every one's threads they always turn up in batches with some missing or late. Maybe Snatchwest are getting it together. Fingers crossed i'll get mine as quickly as you. I'm expecting mine to be delevered last minute by a fat guy in a red suit who drives a sleigh!

[cadencealex]

WOW!!! you recieved your statements really quick. Reading every one's threads they always turn up in batches with some missing or late. Maybe Snatchwest are getting it together. Fingers crossed i'll get mine as quickly as you. I'm expecting mine to be delevered last minute by a fat guy in a red suit who drives a sleigh!

 

 

I got mine quickly too.. I must say I am impressed with their speed!

[WilliamsSJ]

I sent the letter to my home branch, with the address FAO'd to the "Data Controller". I recieved the letter telling me all the charges where "as per our agreed terms" etc, and i've also had threatening letters telling me that my account is past its overdraft limit (due to charges) and that I should contact them asap???

 

I've gotta add though, the statents where in a very thin brown envelope and that it had split and was torn on one side. The hole was enough to see the information inside etc!!!!

 

I've just finished using the excel template by Vampiress (thanks!), printed out one version (without interest calc) for the first letter and have adjusted the letter template to suit my situation!! I agree with "natwesttookmymoney" about the bank being on held by feduciary responsibility and not standing as "a fesuciary"....Thanks

 

I'm owed £1634.00 which for me is quite a lot. And has continually made life really difficult for many years!!!

 

I'll be claiming back fee's going back to 1st August 2001. Is this ok??? Seem to remember reading somthing about a certain timeframe one can only claim them back for????

 

Thanks for posting on my thread.. Good luck with your own battles.. May the force be with you all, young Jedi!

[Deller]

I'll be claiming back fee's going back to 1st August 2001. Is this ok??? Seem to remember reading somthing about a certain timeframe one can only claim them back for????

 

Yes, so long as you're not trying to claim beyond 6 years, although I've noticed some people are now trying this!!

[WilliamsSJ]

Thanks "deller1"!!

 

I had a phone call from NatWest Collections this evening. They where asking me to clear my "un-authorised borrowing" with a debt or credit card there and then. I told the young lady that the account was like this as a result of (in my opinion) unfair charges.

 

I also told her that I had cancelled my all of my Direct Debts with both Bank and Debtee, but some where still appearing on my statement and NatWest where still charging me £38 each time!!! Nearly £300 in the last three months. She told me she "could understand my situation" and "would I be able to pay anything towards the account this evening".

 

Before having a severe sense of humour failure, I told her calmly that I had initiated correspondence in an effort to recover what I deemed to be unfair charges. She seemed to be fully briefed about the subject and aware that "customers" where doing this???? She then told me in a hushed and friendlier voice, that she would have to Default my account and that from todays date, I have 28 days till all my accounts with NatWest would be closed/frozen. She also told me, that if I wanted to still use or keep any of my money in my Savings Account then I should move it to a different bank!!! Which I'll do, putting it into my Britannia Building Society Account...

 

I was shocked further when she said "good luck with the court action" as she truly sounded genuine and not at all sarchastic...I was stoked!!!!

 

Thanks again for the supporting posts on my little tread... Cheers and good luck to you all in your efforts!!!

[WilliamsSJ]

Just noticed that my statements only go back Jan 2002, but i opened the account August 2001.. I fortunately have statements for that period and dug them out.. I found five cheque charges and one Direct Debt return charges for that period (young student meets cheque book ---- Dangerous).. These totalled almost £600 (inc. interest)

 

The data controller must have been trying to pull a fast one on me??????

[natwesttookmymoney]

The data controller must have been trying to pull a fast one on me??????

 

Not necessarily. Natweststaffmember has mentioned a few times that the computer systems changed over in 2001/2 from NatWest's own to the RBS one so it's not unusual to have that break. I got mine in two lumps, too. Some of them were duplicated - but only those with charges, which was odd. I let my paranoia out for a run around the park but I've put it back in my box, now. We're dealing with human beings and they do make mistakes so one must make allowances. The real culprits are those who make the policy, and they're in the boardroom and executive suites.

 

But before I get carried away with this milk-and-kindness stuff, the smug g*ts at my branch who have been so obstructive are to be excepted from my outbreak of conciliatariness!

 

Anyway, don't hesitate to ask if you need help.

[WilliamsSJ]

I'm jumping back in on my thread after a very long time!

 

I reached the point where I was about to send the letter before action, but had a death in the family!

 

Since then I have been away on a 6-month trip and have let things slip a little!

 

I'll explain where i'm at:

 

I have worked out how much i'm owed in charges. Its roughly the same as my overdraft.

 

I sent the letter saying that I feel the charges where unfair and that I would like the figure refunded/credited to my account!

 

Natwest said no and then closed my account!! I now bank with someone else!

 

Yesterday I received a court letter from Northampton County Court out of the blue! Nelsons of Nottingham on behalf of Natwest are taking me to court in a week for the full overdraft???

 

I need to somehow stop this going ahead until I can send Natwest a letter demanding the money!

 

I'm stuck and very confused. What can do??????? Please help!!!!!!

[hedgey06]

Given that the charges applied to your account equalled the amount of the overdraft with Nat West, they've got a cheek to be honest!

 

However, on a serious note I imagine they've applied interest and fees to the original debt? Therefore, is it subtantially higher than the original overdraft debt?

[WilliamsSJ]

Hi Hedgey

 

Nope, my overdraft is £2000 and the claim was for £2245. Nelsons are putting on a few charges.

 

I recall reading something about a motion to set aside???? Can I ask the court to wait untill Natwest have answered my letters????

 

Please help somebody! I've only a few days left!!

 

I'm gonna send my LBA tomorrow, and look at writing a statement for the Nelsons court action, stating how I'm in the process of reclaiming my bank charges totalling almost the same figure they are demanding!

 

Thanks for reading folks!!

[hedgey06]

Hi there!

 

Can I just clarify:

 

- original overdraft = £2,000

- their claim = £2,245

 

Basically, you need to defend the claim on the grounds that the debt comprises wholly (or partly) of charges. It's then up to Nat West as the Claimant in this case to prove to the court that the charges applied to the account were justified and lawful.

[WilliamsSJ]

Yeah basically?

 

I just need to know how to go about defending myself in the right way??

 

Thanks

[tomterm8]

Hi Williams, I've been asked to look into this thread by Hedgey06. it seems time is of the essence.

 

In order to help you, I need to know as much as i can about the case. therefore, i am particularly interested in you posting (minus your name, address, personal details etc):

 

(a) their particulars of claim

(b) your defence and counter claim (if any),

© how much the original debt was

(d) a copy of any default notice

(e) how many collection charges etc were issued

(f) the interest rate applied on the debt, before and after the default (i.e. any overdraft interest rate)

 

I'm especially interested in whether the graduate account was one of those with 0% interest rate?

 

I'm sorry, but without this info I can't really help you very much. there just isn't anything to go on in the thread so far.

 

I would respectfully suggest that we really need to get out act in gear, since we have barely got any time to file any counter claim, or amend the defence if neccessary.

[WilliamsSJ]

Hi tomterm8

 

The particulars of the claim are as follows:

 

Balance under an agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974 made between the defendant (myself) and the claimant (Natwest Bank, R/O 41 Lothbury, London EC2P 2BP) or its predecessor in title and outstanding at this date. The defendant remains liable for making monthly payments under the sgreement untill the outstanding debt is repaid invoice/ref 14744436

 

Balance outstanding £2608.53

 

My defence or counter claim:

 

Is that the debt is has arisen in effect, from the unfair charges charged to my account for the period which I banked with Natwest. And that had the charges been fair and reasonable I would have never had to go so deep into debt with Natwest! I calculate that £2204.42 in charges have bee applied to my accounts with Natwest since I started banking with them back in 2000.

 

The original debt was: £2608.53

Court Fees charged are: £190

Total: £2798.53

 

The default notice isn't to hand but I can post it as soon as i'm home tomorrow night.

 

Surprisingly few collection charges have been applied to my knowledge. The debt is pretty much as it was the day Natwest closed the accounts! I'll investigate further tomorrow night.

 

Finally the interest rate charged to the overdraft was: 17.8% for the the last few years of my banking with Natwest?

 

Thanks so much for looking at his for me. I'll get the missing info posted as soon as I can.

 

SJ

[tomterm8]

Hi, William, you REALLY need to get a counter claim in for the unlawful charges, and also amend your defence. the counter claim part is easy. you use the POC already posted on the site. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/109337-new-poc-n1-natwest.html

 

i would suggest PUTTING THE COUNTER CLAIM IN WITHIN 24 HOURS. This is vital, if you are going to have any chance of not ending up with a CCJ.

 

The defence par is more difficult. I've had a few computer problems today, so i will draft something tomorrow and post it tomorrow evening.

[WilliamsSJ]

Thank you so much, you don't know how much I appreciate the sudden dissipation of stress you've created.

 

Having a CCJ isn't too much of an issue as I'm emigrating next year and never really have an interest in getting credit again (its the devils work I tell thee:rolleyes:). However, I am mortgage free and own my property outright and would really like to avoid a "charging order on my property".

 

This was brought to my attention in the last letter the agency for Nelson sent to me!

 

I'll draw up the counter claim using the POC and post it off tomorrow lunchtime. As for the defence, I would be hugely in your debt if you could point me in the right direction??

 

Many thanks

 

Simon Williams

[tomterm8]

Thank you so much, you don't know how much I appreciate the sudden dissipation of stress you've created.

 

Having a CCJ isn't too much of an issue as I'm emigrating next year and never really have an interest in getting credit again (its the devils work I tell thee:rolleyes:). However, I am mortgage free and own my property outright and would really like to avoid a "charging order on my property".

 

This was brought to my attention in the last letter the agency for Nelson sent to me!

 

I'll draw up the counter claim using the POC and post it off tomorrow lunchtime. As for the defence, I would be hugely in your debt if you could point me in the right direction??

 

Many thanks

 

Simon Williams

 

DON'T POST IT!

 

Unless you use a service other than the Royal Mail... the postal strikes will mean it takes too long to get to the court...

 

either use money claim online, or take it down to your local court (frankly, i would go down to the local court, given the time limits).

[tomterm8]

... double post.

[tomterm8]

You need to do this via an application notice form (EDIT: YOU NEED THREE COPIES OF THIS FORM) .

depending on your situation, you may be able to do this for free

 

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex160a_0406.pdf

 

otherwise, it's up to £65.

 

 

the form is

 

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/n244_0400.pdf

 

 

 

Select "not at a hearing", not agreed, district judge

 

 

part a

 

I intend to apply for an order to amend my defence

 

part b because

 

I was not aware of all the legal facts when I submitted my defence

 

in part c

 

I respectfully ask the permission of the court to change my defence as in the attached statement of case, because as a litigant in person I was not aware of all the legal requirements of this difficult area of law at the time i filed my defence. i want the court to consider all the facts of the case before issuing judgement.

 

I believe the statements in the attached defence are true

 

 

 

 

DEFENCE

 

 

1. I deny all allegations put by the claimant in their particulars of claim, and put them to strict proof on each allegation.

 

2. No notice of the intent by the claimant to terminate or default the alleged debt, or to pursue a legal action was received before the claimant commenced such action, neither has adequate information been provided to investigate the claim.

 

3. I object that the claimant's statement of case is insufficiently particularised and does not comply or even attempt to comply with CPR part 16. In this regard I wish to draw the courts attention to the following matters;

 

a) A copy of any default or termination notice has not been supplied with the claim

 

b) a copy of the original credit agreement or terms of account have not been supplied with the claim

 

c) A description of the nature of any breach has not been supplied with the claim.

 

d) No documents or evidence have been provided to show the amount currently liable under any agreement.

 

4. I deny that I am liable to the claimant as stated in the claim or at all. This claim appears to arise from an account I opened on or around DATE, with the claimant.

 

5. During the operation of this account the claimant debited substantial charges to me in respect of late payments, or returned item fees. It is my belief that these charges were unlawful, for the reasons discussed in my counter claim.

 

6. Further, it is my understandingthat a test case has been brought by the OFT against the claimant on substantially the same grounds as discussed at paragraph 5.

 

7. It is my understanding that as a defence to the OFT action, the claimant has, or intends to, file a defence stating that the charges mentioned are not demanded on breach of contract, but are instead service charges in receipt of a service. Further, the claimant has on numerous occasions publicised its belief that this is indeed the case, and it is my understanding that the claimant has filed many defences to individual claims on these grounds.

 

8 indeed, my understanding at the time that the account was opened, was that late payment was a service under the contract as represented by the claimant, and that I was entitled to assert this contractual right Consequently, I believe that the claimant should be estopped from claiming that late payment is, or can constitute, a breach of contract.

 

9. If the court should decide that late payment is a breach of contract, and that the claimant is therefore entitled to bring this action, then I assert that these charges were unlawful interest in breach of Consumer credit act 1974 s93.

 

”Interest not to be increased on default.

The debtor under a regulated consumer credit agreement shall not be obliged to pay interest on sums which, in breach of the agreement, are unpaid by him at a rate—

(a)

where the total charge for credit includes an item in respect of interest, exceeding the rate of that interest, or

 

(b)

in any other case, exceeding what would be the rate of the total charge for credit if any items included in the total charge for credit by virtue of section 20(2) were disregarded.”

 

and that any charges in respect of them have been paid under a mistake of law, and that I am entitled to restitution in respect of the difference between these payments (and any interest on these payments) and the actual liquidated costs incurred by the claimant.

 

10. Further, any termination notice or default notice would be inaccurate, to the extent described in paragraph 9, and consequently I respectfully submit that the court is not entitled to enforce the agreement until this mistake has been rectified. There are many examples where courts have found that any inaccuracy invalidates a default notice, for example Woodchester v Swaine where it was found that “Here we are dealing with a statute which, for good and obvious reasons, requires a lender or owner to set out precisely what needs to be done to put right the alleged breach of contract. If a sum of money has to be paid it needs to be "specified". And if the figure given is more than the sum which the giver of the notice is entitled to demand, the notice, in my judgment, must be invalid. A similarly strict approach was taken in this court in relation to a preliminary notice under Case D of the Agricultural Holdings (Notice to Quit) Act 1977 in Dickinson v Boucher [1983] 269 EGLR 1159..”

[WilliamsSJ]

You need to do this via an application notice form (EDIT: YOU NEED THREE COPIES OF THIS FORM) .

depending on your situation, you may be able to do this for free

 

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex160a_0406.pdf

 

otherwise, it's up to £65.

 

 

the form is

 

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/n244_0400.pdf

 

 

 

Select "not at a hearing", not agreed, district judge

 

Do I copy and paste the following

 

 

part a

 

I intend to apply for an order to amend my defence

 

part b because

 

I was not aware of all the legal facts when I submitted my defence

 

in part c

 

I respectfully ask the permission of the court to change my defence as in the attached statement of case, because as a litigant in person I was not aware of all the legal requirements of this difficult area of law at the time i filed my defence. i want the court to consider all the facts of the case before issuing judgement.

 

I believe the statements in the attached defence are true

 

 

 

 

DEFENCE

 

 

1. I deny all allegations put by the claimant in their particulars of claim, and put them to strict proof on each allegation.

 

2. No notice of the intent by the claimant to terminate or default the alleged debt, or to pursue a legal action was received before the claimant commenced such action, neither has adequate information been provided to investigate the claim.

 

3. I object that the claimant's statement of case is insufficiently particularised and does not comply or even attempt to comply with CPR part 16. In this regard I wish to draw the courts attention to the following matters;

 

a) A copy of any default or termination notice has not been supplied with the claim

 

b) a copy of the original credit agreement or terms of account have not been supplied with the claim

 

c) A description of the nature of any breach has not been supplied with the claim.

 

d) No documents or evidence have been provided to show the amount currently liable under any agreement.

 

4. I deny that I am liable to the claimant as stated in the claim or at all. This claim appears to arise from an account I opened on or around DATE, with the claimant.

 

5. During the operation of this account the claimant debited substantial charges to me in respect of late payments, or returned item fees. It is my belief that these charges were unlawful, for the reasons discussed in my counter claim.

 

6. Further, it is my understanding that a test case has been brought by the OFT against the claimant on substantially the same grounds as discussed at paragraph 5.

 

7. It is my understanding that as a defence to the OFT action, the claimant has, or intends to, file a defence stating that the charges mentioned are not demanded on breach of contract, but are instead service charges in receipt of a service. Further, the claimant has on numerous occasions publicised its belief that this is indeed the case, and it is my understanding that the claimant has filed many defences to individual claims on these grounds.

 

8 indeed, my understanding at the time that the account was opened, was that late payment was a service under the contract as represented by the claimant, and that I was entitled to assert this contractual right Consequently, I believe that the claimant should be estopped from claiming that late payment is, or can constitute, a breach of contract.

 

9. If the court should decide that late payment is a breach of contract, and that the claimant is therefore entitled to bring this action, then I assert that these charges were unlawful interest in breach of Consumer credit act 1974 s93.

 

”Interest not to be increased on default.

The debtor under a regulated consumer credit agreement shall not be obliged to pay interest on sums which, in breach of the agreement, are unpaid by him at a rate—

(a)

where the total charge for credit includes an item in respect of interest, exceeding the rate of that interest, or

 

(b)

in any other case, exceeding what would be the rate of the total charge for credit if any items included in the total charge for credit by virtue of section 20(2) were disregarded.”

 

and that any charges in respect of them have been paid under a mistake of law, and that I am entitled to restitution in respect of the difference between these payments (and any interest on these payments) and the actual liquidated costs incurred by the claimant.

 

10. Further, any termination notice or default notice would be inaccurate, to the extent described in paragraph 9, and consequently I respectfully submit that the court is not entitled to enforce the agreement until this mistake has been rectified. There are many examples where courts have found that any inaccuracy invalidates a default notice, for example Woodchester v Swaine where it was found that “Here we are dealing with a statute which, for good and obvious reasons, requires a lender or owner to set out precisely what needs to be done to put right the alleged breach of contract. If a sum of money has to be paid it needs to be "specified". And if the figure given is more than the sum which the giver of the notice is entitled to demand, the notice, in my judgment, must be invalid. A similarly strict approach was taken in this court in relation to a preliminary notice under Case D of the Agricultural Holdings (Notice to Quit) Act 1977 in Dickinson v Boucher [1983] 269 EGLR 1159..”

 

I have put the couterclaim in and am putting the defence together today. Many thanks again for your help!!

[tomterm8]

basically, yes. put part A, in part A of the form & etc.

 

Don't forget you need three copies of the application. I would take them to the court in person.

[WilliamsSJ]

I've started the counter claim online, but it seems a bit restrictive on the characters allowed. I'd use the PDF documents you linked here but my PC is still very very sick, and I can't get my printer to work. I can't even cut and paste between different programs????

 

 

Heres the text I copied form the web page:

 

Counterclaim details

 

If your claim is for a specific sum of money, how much are you claiming?

My claim is for (please specify nature of the claim in a maximum of 76 characters, including spaces, and 3 lines).

 

What are your reasons for making the counterclaim? (Please state your counterclaim in a maximum of 4000 characters and a maximum of 46 lines)