David Lloyds problem

[slick132]

Hi Dolly,

 

I see you now have TWO legal friends !!

 

How kind of DLL to waive their unlawful admin penalty fees !!

 

I said earlier that I see no point in seeking answers to old issues that you've previously mentioned. The only issue now is the whether you pay the 3 months fees DLL wants for the notice period.

 

DLL won't sell the "debt" but they may use a third party to collect on their behalf.

 

If you don't pay up, there's a small chance DLL will take court action. If that happens and you lose in court, you can pay the settlement amount within 30 days of the hearing to avoid the CCJ showing on the public register for the next 6 years.

 

The problem you have is The OFT did not get DLL to reduce their 3 month notice requirement when they got the major gym players to agree to fairer terms. Most gyms require just one month's notice.

 

So I would ignore DLL for now and do something constructive - make a formal complaint to both Trading Standards and the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA). The latter took over from The OFT.

 

I would make the complaint about DLL requiring 3 months notice when most other gyms require one month. Don't drag up the other issues.

 

You can say that you believe DLL are failing to treat you fairly, by requiring an excessive notice period. Accordingly, you feel DLL are in breach of UTCCR 1999 and you would like the matter investigated properly.

 

Draft a letter here first if you want, so we can check it over.

 

[Dolly1603]

Hi Slick

 

I just wanted to let you know that I have received a letter from ARC. They say, as they've always said, that they have checked with DLL who have said they have discussed membership with me but an agreement has never been reached.

 

The settlement offer, they confirm, is not acceptable. DLL also confirm that being a long standing member, these issues were never raised in the past - I've no doubt, though, that had I raised them, they'd still have stonewalled me.

 

ARC therefore remain as instructed and the outstanding balance must be paid. They also mention the reduced administration but state that they are prepared to reduce it to £20 - so contradictory to the email I received where they said they were prepared to waive it.

 

They say they are able to assist by setting up an affordable payment plan and emphasise to please make each payment affordable - how considerate! I have 14 days to pay or they will have no choice to pass the matter on to MajorLaw.

 

I'll be writing to the Competition Standards Authority today so I'll post a draft letter soon.

 

Edited June 1, 2015 by slick132
added spacing !!

[slick132]

Hi Dolly,

 

I've added spacing to the above post. Please don't post in single blocks of text as it's harder to read.

 

The people to write to are the CMA, Competition and Markets Authority. I look forward to seing the draft later.

 

Ignore ARC for now and let us know when Majorlaw contact you.

 

[Dolly1603]

Hi Slick

 

I've done a draft letter, but am I able to attach it as a pdf or do I post the text in a reply message?

 

Thanks

[slick132]

Hi Dolly,

 

I assume you've done the letter on MS Word or similar so you can copy from the document and paste it here.

 

Remove any identifying personal data first.

 

[Dolly1603]

Hi Slick

 

Here's the text of the letter:

 

"I write with a complaint about a leisure company called David Lloyd Leisure who I believe have treated me unfairly, primarily with their three month cancellation notice period. They say they have gone to a great deal of effort to ensure their terms are legal and fair to the consumer, yet offer no explanation as to why this notice period is fair. From what I have heard, they are the only ones who require this long cancellation period.

 

"Despite what I now realise was an underhanded way of persuading me to sign up, I was a member for six years, but in November of 2014, I decided to cancel my membership. Since then there has been a load of correspondence back and forth during which I tried to argue the unfairness of the cancellation but David Lloyd never fully addressed this or any of the issues I brought up with them, which, included suspension of membership and the manner in which they signed me up. There were also many emails from Central Membership together with phone calls from them to my landline and mobile, on occasion, twice in the same day, to the point where I was feeling very stressed and harassed. I even wrote two letters to the CEO, Scott Lloyd, to complain and try and get some answers. There was no response.

 

"In the beginning they never sent me a copy of the form I signed and only sent it in December of 2014 to back up their claims. I also hasten to add, the copy of the contract I received even required three months notice upon expiry of the initial period. They also sent a link to the National Archives where there's an “undertakings” document signed in 2012 after the OFT investigation, that contains the three months' cancellation. I am at a loss as to why even the OFT didn't think this was unfair.

 

"It wasn't until the beginning of March that I heard from ARC Europe Ltd, a debt collector who rang me on my mobile asking for my card number over the phone to settle the debt. I was extremely upset by this and emailed them to complain, to which they replied that they had listened to the call (they never advised me that it was being recorded), they disagreed, and that their employee acted with professionalism. What followed were more letters and numerous calls to my landline and mobile, again on occasion twice a day. When I challenged them on this they said they only promised not to ring if I either settled the debt or provided some “detailed dispute”.

 

"Last week I received an email from a Regional Manager who said she was sorry I had had cause to contact her and for my experience. I never heard of this woman and therefore never contacted her directly but this is clearly the response to my two letters to the CEO, who to date has never contacted me himself. She goes on to say that David Lloyd has undertaken a “great deal of effort” to ensure that their terms are legal and fair to the consumer. Considering the situation, she said that she was happy to waive the £70 ARC fee if the debt is settled within 10 days.

 

"Today I get a letter from ARC saying that their client has confirmed that no agreement had been reached in discussion of membership. David Lloyd also confirm that my offer of £100 in full and final settlement is not acceptable and that being a longstanding member, these issues have not been brought up in the past. I don't see what this has to do with anything. Whether I had brought them up years ago or the present, I doubt would have made any difference. ARC have said their client is willing to reduce the £70 administration fee to £20 – as a “gesture of good will” if I pay in fourteen days. This is not what the Regional Manager told me. If not, they will hand the matter on to their solicitors, MajorLaw Ltd, for further action.

 

"I have been advised that the only valid argument here is the fairness of the three month cancellation period and I am hoping that my complaint is not the only one of it's kind you have received. I did contact my local county Trading Standards, who responded saying they no longer help on individual issues due to growing demand, but thanked me for contacting them with my information, which they will collate.

 

"Finally I would like to bring your attention to a website called Consumer Action Group, who help people with a variety of consumer issues. Under the Gyms and Health Clubs link are hundreds of complaints about gyms including David Lloyd Leisure, which also mention ARC and MajorLaw.

 

"Thank you for reading this and apologies if it goes on a bit as I wanted to give a little background to the story and an idea of how this organisation treats people. I look forward to hearing back from you soon with confirmation that this letter has been received and that the complaint has been acknowledged and filed."

 

I hope this is okay and believe it or not I did try and keep it brief, but I also wanted to give them some idea of how DLL and ARC treat people. Let me know what you think. I can take out my mention of your website if you don't think it's appropriate and just suggest they Google "David Lloyd complaints" instead.

 

Thanks

[slick132]

Hi Dolly,

 

The complaint should ONLY address the DLL requirement for 3 month's notice. Nothing else is relevant to the issue and, if you include all the issues you've raised, it's unlikely you'll get the matter investigated at all.

 

The alternative I drafted was lost when I posted it a few mins back so I'll come back later and do it again.

 

The complaint should go to both the CMA and to Trading Standards.

 

[slick132]

Dear sir or madam,

 

FORMAL COMPLAINT - David Lloyd Leisure gyms

 

I write to complain about David Lloyd Leisure gyms' insistence on 3 month's notice when cancelling a gym agreement that has run it's minimum agreement period. I believe this to be unfair to me as a consumer.

 

I joined Next Generation gym in 2008 for a minimum 12 month and it was taken over by DLL in 2009. I remained a member paying by monthly Direct Debit until I gave notice to cancel in November 2014.

 

DLL told me they required 3 months notice during which time I had to maintain payments.

 

All the other major operators in the gym industry require only 1 months notice to cancel including, Bannatynes, Fitness First, DW Sports, LA Fitness, Harlands and Virgin.

 

Despite writing to DLL's Head Office and CEO to complain about their 3 month requirement, they have instructed ARC (Europe) as their DCA to pursue me for payment.

 

Please acknowledge this complaint and let me know what action you will take.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Send a copy to :-

 

"Pipeline"

CMA

Victoria House

37 Southampton Row

London

WC1B 4AD

 

Also send a copy to your local Trading Standards office.

 

[Dolly1603]

Thanks, Slick

 

I will redraft letter tomorrow. And thanks also for always ending with a smilie face - hopefully soon, I'll be able to end with one, too!

 

By the way, I haven't said anything to DLL about contacting TS or CMA - it would be great if they do take action - what a thing it would be to be a fly on the wall…but not holding my breath yet...

 

[slick132]

Hi Dolly,

 

I must be honest with you - the complaints to TS and to the CMA are NOT likely to affect your personal dispute with DLL. But it's time that everyone here on CAG affected by the gyms and their activities complained properly.

 

If enough folk do this, TS and/or the CMA will have to take another look at certain aspects of the gyms and admin companies behaviour.

 

[Dolly1603]

Hi Slick

 

Well, you were right. I just heard back from CMA and - much as Trading Standards said - they rely on information such as that which I have provided, but they can't respond in detail to individual complaints/concerns. Nothing yet from that Regional Manager at DLL , ARC or Major Law but I have no doubt I will soon, that they aren't just going to drop this, so will let you know when I do.

 

To be honest, I'll probably end up paying, but at least I've given them as much grief as I can before I do!

 

[slick132]

Hi Dolly,

 

To be honest, I'll probably end up paying, but at least I've given them as much grief as I can before I do!

 

Your choice, of course, to do as you see fit. I'd be a bit disappointed if you just pay up, but I'll get over it !!

 

Have you had a written reply from TS to the complaint letter ?

 

[Dolly1603]

Hi Slick

 

I know what you mean, but if CMA and TS can't really intervene in individual cases I don't see a way out. As my two legal friends said, the case doesn't really stand up (especially the signing up issue, suspension of membership, even all the harassing letters and phone calls), so it would be best to be done with it and pay up. I just keep thinking about another story I heard, which was worse and was so blatantly unfair, yet they got away with it. However, the one card I could have to play if they do take me to court, is that I offered a settlement that they turned down. One of my legal friends did say they would have to explain to a judge why they didn't take it.

 

TS haven't yet responded to the formal complaint letter, but they did respond to a previous letter I sent them, in much the same manner as the CMA, who did, however, say that they have brought this to the attention of their pipeline/intelligence team. My only hope is that they have already received more complaints from others.

 

[slick132]

Hi Dolly,

 

Here on CAG we will encourage more folk to complain to The CMA and to TS about their treatment at the hands of gyms and their admin companies.

 

[Dolly1603]

Hi Slick

 

Heard from ARC and MajorLaw today. I got a call from ARC this morning and not recognising the number I foolishly answered it. I told the guy that he needs to put it in writing, please, thank you and I hung up. Then the letter arrived with the post from Major Law. They say a County Court Claim has now been prepared and is ready to be issued against me in Northampton. They itemised all the costs - court fees, solicitors fees, annual interest & the actual debt then said that the issue of the court proceedings will mean that the amount I owe their client will increase by x amount.

 

In bold type, they say that I am required to send payment today and to please call ARC's legal helpline - like I'd trust them. Oh, and I may want to seek legal advice or ring Citizens Advice, etc. - like I haven't already been doing that! How can I do that if they require me to send payment today?! If I ignore the letter they may proceed to issue the claim in 14 days without further notice.

 

One of my legal friends said these solicitors are mostly factories churning out these kinds of letters by the dozen every day practically. That still doesn't stop me from feeling a bit sick.

 

Should I update TS and CMA?

 

What do I do now? This is it, it seems.

 

 

P.S Did I mention that I live nowhere near Northampton County Court? I am about an hour and a half south! My husband says this is a ploy to scare me and get me to pay up, being the court is so far away. However, Citizen's Advice says that it could be moved to a local court.

[slick132]

Hi Dolly,

 

Updating TS and The CMA will not help you for now, as I've said before.

 

On other threads here, folk are threatened in this manner on a daily basis but how many claims have been issued - two to my knowledge over the past 6 years !!

 

I'd reply to Majorlaw as follows :-

 

I refer to your letter of xxdate.

 

David Lloyd and ARC Europe have failed to respond properly to my complaints and assertions.

 

Accordingly, David Lloyd and/or ARC have breached OFT Debt Collection Guidelines by instructing Majorlaw. Further, I find your letter to be intimidatory and harassing in nature.

 

If you make any further payment demands or threats, I will make formal complaints to the appropriate regulatory bodies including the SRA.

 

If court action was taken against you, you can pay to settle, or fight the case in your local county court.

 

Edited June 15, 2015 by slick132

[Dolly1603]

Hi Slick

 

Thanks once again! I find it unbelievable that they can get away with this kind of intimidation. Northampton is nothing to do with me as I live in a completely different county. I'll draft the letter as soon as I finish here - but I'd love to copy it to that Regional Manager and the CEO (who doesn't have the decency to respond to my letters himself).

 

I've also drafted a short update to the CMA, and in it I have told them I received a letter from Major Law saying they have prepared, ready to be issued, a county court judgement against me in Northampton - noting that I live no where near there. Then I outlined the gist of the letter - literally in two 3-line paragraphs this time - and closed saying I wanted to bring this to their attention as I believe this is completely unfair and outrageous intimidation. Let me know if you think it's worth sending.

 

[slick132]

Hi Dolly,

 

I suggest you do NOT send an update to The CMA. It will not help you at the moment, nor will it make a difference to bigger complaint.

 

Copy the letter I wrote to the CEO and Reg'l Mngr if you want.

 

Please understand, all MCOL Claims are issued via the Northants Bulk Centre. Once you, as an individual, defend the claim, you can apply for the case to be heard at YOUR local county court.

 

In any event, no claim has yet been issued so let's stick with current events.

 

[Dolly1603]

Hi Slick

 

Just heard back from Majorlaw: they contacted me in "good faith" on instructions from their client who advised them that payment was due. My comments are "noted" and they have referred the matter back to the clients for instructions. They will only write again if instructed to do so.

 

I replied to the regional manager this week, saying it was not her to whom I addressed my complaint, it was the CEO, who it seems doesn't have the decency to address these issues himself. I told her I have been subjected to eight months of harassing phone calls and letters from DLL and ARC and I had now heard from Majorlaw who threatened court action. I attached a copy of my reply. I told her DLL has failed to properly address my complaints, in principal, the three months and the rejection without explanation of my settlement offer. I referred to her comment that DLL had gone to a great deal of effort to be fair, yet they are the only fitness company to require three months. Not that I expected an answer, but I asked her why this is. I have had no response from her.

 

I don't plan on responding to the latest Majorlaw letter as I don't see a reason to do so and there's really nothing to say.

 

DLL and/or ARC are sure to make contact again, so I'll let you know when they do.

 

[slick132]

Yes, no reply is needed to Majorlaw's letter.

 

Keep us posted.

 

[Dolly1603]

Hi Slick

 

You'd be forgiven for thinking that this whole saga was finally over for the amount of time that's passed, but we got back from holiday yesterday to find a letter from ARC.

 

They say that their client has decided to accept my previous offer of £100 in full and final settlement - oh, but please note, this is a gesture of "good will" - ha, ha, very funny.

 

They also say they "regret" to learn that I feel harassed over this matter, but they must advise me that they do not view their attempts to contact me as harassment…Seriously?? if that isn't the biggest load of you-know-what!

 

I am to make a secure payment to their website or ring them to make payment and they have placed my account on hold for 14 days pending settlement. Of course MajorLaw will step back in for the full amount of £294.85 if payment isn't made.

 

So even though I'm still paying something, I think this is a degree of success on my part.

 

Unless you've got any other advice I'll pay them today or tomorrow, then send them a letter telling them and DLL to acknowledge receipt and to never to contact me again in future.

 

I would also like to advise them that I have reported this whole matter as a formal complaint to the relevant authorities.

 

[slick132]

Hi Dolly,

 

If you're happy to pay ARC £100 to end the matter, that's your prerogative.

 

Well done for getting them to accept the offer.

 

We'll continue to fight against their 3 month cancellation requirement.

 

[Dolly1603]

Hi Slick

 

Well, it has only taken nearly 10 months - unbelievable. It goes to show they are tenacious in their greed and drive to squeeze as much money out of people as possible.

 

My husband said not to pay at all and tell them I want my day in court - which they probably won't do, but seeing as I did make the offer and this this has gone on long enough, I'd just rather it be over. I will give them a piece of my mind though.

 

I read Funkylady's thread, by the way. Wow - I feel for her and I sincerely hope she wins her case and gets full repayment as I don't think she should have paid a penny at all. They should be publicly shamed in my opinion, for the way in which they treat people.

 

Thanks again so much for all your help and advice - all the best in your fight to get the three month notice changed.