2nd hand car - engine fault.

[sharvey44]

Hi. This is my first post but I have used some valuable information from this site in the past.

 

I recently bought a Porsche 911 from what appeared to be a very reputable dealer. I had Porsche perform a 111 point inspection yesterday. They informed me of some serious engine problems and advised returning it. I called the dealer with this information and today I sent the following letter accompanying the inspection report, recorded delivery:

 

On 29th June 2014 I purchased, and took delivery of, the above vehicle from XXX. On 2nd July 2014 I discovered that it was not of satisfactory quality. This was highlighted by the report produced from Porsche East London after an official 111 point inspection (attached). Within the report Porsche indicated the following:

 

• · Knocking noise from right-hand side of engine, suspected bore/piston issue. This was backed up by evidence of discolouration of left-hand side exhaust pipe caused by increased oil use on the right-hand engine bank
  
• · Right-hand front coil road-spring snapped
  
• · Brake pipe support bracket securing bolt snapped
  

It was also indicated, which I had experienced from day of purchase:

 

• · Judder felt through steering when 1st applying brakes
  

Section 14 of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 requires dealers to supply goods of satisfactory quality. However, the vehicle is clearly not of a satisfactory quality which is defined as free from minor defects, safe and durable for a reasonable length of time. You are therefore in breach of contract.

I am legally entitled to reject the vehicle and to be reimbursed for its full purchase price of £xxxxx. I will give you seven (7) days to reply to me accepting, unconditionally, my request in principle and advising me of a date by which I will receive payment. If you do not respond, or you do not respond positively within this time period, I shall send you a letter before action that will outline my intention to recover the full amount plus interest , costs and compensation through the Courts.

 

Once an agreement has been reached to the points contained within this letter, you are entitled to the return of the vehicle to your business premises (at your own expense).

 

If they ask to inspect the vehicle do I have to permit them to take it away or can I refuse and demand a refund? One final note, I paid for the majority of the vehicle on Credit Card to cover me under Consumer Credit Act.

 

Thanks,

[Conniff]

If the report is qualified by the dealer details on it, I can see no reason why he would want to have a look, he wont be able to deny any of the problems highlighted.

 

 

You do have the right of rejection and they do not have the right to insist on a repair or replacement. You can, of course have a repair done, but that will not cancel out your right to reject the car later at a later date.

If the engine problems are as the report says, I can't see them wanting to strip it and rebuild it.

 

 

How much was paid in cash ?

[GrahamMcLean]

Whether you can reject the car or not will depend entirely on what age it is and how much you paid. A porsche is a sports car. It is likely the engine and box will have been thrashed regularly. The courts know this and will say if it was cheaper than average and/or had high miles you will have got wht you paid for.

[Conniff]

The court will not say that at all.

Courts don't think in terms of the 'car being thrashed so it can't be any good'.

 

 

 

 

The law says that if the goods are not of satisfactory quality then you have the right to reject it.

[oddjobbob]

· Knocking noise from right-hand side of engine, suspected bore/piston issue. This was backed up by evidence of discolouration of left-hand side exhaust pipe caused by increased oil use on the right-hand engine bank· Right-hand front coil road-spring snapped

· Brake pipe support bracket securing bolt snapped

It was also indicated, which I had experienced from day of purchase:

 

• · Judder felt through steering when 1st applying brakes
  

Some of the above depends on how old the car is, how many miles it's done and what you actually paid for it.

Can YOU hear the knocking, is it immediately apparent?

The coil spring is not an expensive fix, but needs doing as soon as possible.

The brake pipe support bolt is minor

The juddering can only be worn discs - IF the car would pass an MOT and the juddering is only minor and the car is more than 5 years old it's probably par for the course.

As said a lot depends on the age, miles and price paid.

[GrahamMcLean]

With all due respect conniff, I have sold more cars in a month than most people will drive in a lifetime. As such I have a good sound knowledge of consumer law in regards to used car sales. The start of an engine knock in a car that could of been 5% of it's new price would not be considered unsatisfactory quality. It simply means the customer has bought an old clunker at old clunker money with old clunker faults. After all the engine may well go on for a further 2 years before it needs work.

 

That is why I stated as has oddjobbob that to give a proper answer we would need to know the age, miles, model & price paid.

[GrahamMcLean]

Also in my experience if the first thing a buyer does is take it to the main stealer for a free multi point inspection, it means the buyer is suffering buyers remorse and is hunting a reason to try and get out of the deal.

[oddjobbob]

Also in my experience if the first thing a buyer does is take it to the main stealer for a free multi point inspection, it means the buyer is suffering buyers remorse and is hunting a reason to try and get out of the deal.

 

 

 

 

 

+1, all day long!

[sharvey44]

Also in my experience if the first thing a buyer does is take it to the main stealer for a free multi point inspection, it means the buyer is suffering buyers remorse and is hunting a reason to try and get out of the deal.

 

Speculation and completely incorrect. It was the perfect car. Had everything I wanted but it's a Porsche so I wanted to make sure it was all good before looking forward to a long and happy ownership. I should have had it inspected before hand but as it was a dealer rather than private I thought it would be fine to do it after. 997s are prone to bore scoring and I wanted to make sure it was fine. The 111 point inspection is very common and at £216 is not cheap. Car is an 05 plate with 76k. So average mileage. Model is Carreras S. I'm not going to say what I paid for it but it was market price. It was not discounted. I only paid around 5% by cash as this was the deposit. The responses I have received on here seem to assume I intentionally went out to return it. I didn't. I thought I had found the perfect car. Porsche were the ones to tell me initially that due to the problems and the very short ownership that it would be best to reject.

[Conniff]

There is a great reluctance by used car sellers to admit they ever do anything wrong and a strong belief the regulations don't apply to them or if they do, they can get around them.

[oddjobbob]

OP in the circumstances you describe, obviously NOT an old girl at old girl money, if its got an engine fault, take it back and get your money back.

 

 

Regarding the 'main dealer check' question, yes, I have had many occasions where someone has bought a car from me and then taken it for a main dealer (free) check over.

 

 

If it was within two weeks I just refunded them, you'd never make them happy, so what's the point?

 

 

After that though, I'd just state that I would take it for a fresh MOT at my own cost, and that if it passed the MOT then the government (NOT me!) were of the opinion that it was fit to be on the road, and goodbye.

 

 

However an engine knock on an expensive car is something else entirely and you could spend thousands putting it right (if ever...) so go and get your money back is by far the best thing to do.