Work Programme Induction Meeting

[Madamfluff]

On the subject of confirming participant identity: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/264168/wp-pg-chapter-4.pdf

No reference is made to a photo ID - Unless you have been issued with a DVLA Driver's Licence, or hold a current passport, there isn't really anything else that you could provide. I would contend that there is no legal requirement to carry or provide a photo ID anyway.

As for "not providing a phone number or email address" - Not everyone has one of either, and if your preferred method of contact is "in writing", the "benefit doubt" is little more than a spiteful response on the part of the provider.

 

Question: Did the WP provider issue you with a document that describes their complaint procedures ?

 

If not, then they are in breach of DWP guidance, and you should raise this when responding to the "good reason" letter.

 

Question: Did you record this "induction meeting" ?

If you did, then you'll have the evidence to show hostility from the "adviser" and that you had attempted to "engage" as best you could.... You could try "having reviewed the recordings and notes made during the meeting, I can find no evidence of...." even if no recordings were made.

 

Note: I have been accused of "having an attitude problem" - My response was, "No. You are the one that has the problem with my attitude."

 

Indeed there certainly is no legal requirement to hold or produce photo ID

 

Banks, Solicitor, Estate Agents who say they need it for money laundering purposes will take other forms of ID I know this for a fact as I have opened a bank account, sold my flat and bought a house in the last couple of years all without photo ID and of course employers can see other forms of ID that they can use as an 'excuse' to employ someone.

 

I would like to know how the ID part of the OPs problems pan out

[Janette40]

It looks like the outcome of the good reason letter won't be until after at least one more wp meeting. Regarding making a complaint using the provider's complaints procedure, I was wondering whether I should make the complaint before or after this outcome - I had been thinking of pros and cons for both.

 

If I wait for the outcome then I would have it in black and white that the doubt raised carried no weight with the DWP (unless of course I am sanctioned - then I would have to rethink how to approach the complaint). Also, any further issues/problems arising for the additional meetings could be added to the complaint if necessary.

 

However, would a delay mean that the complaint might carry less weight, and if so would this also be true if I explained that I had been waiting for the decision maker's outcome?

 

Many thanks

 

Jan

 

PS@Madamfluff, I would be surprised if any sanction came from the photo ID issue, this seems to be the weakest part of the doubt's argument.

[Janette40]

Hi - does anyone have any advice/suggestions/opinions whether to go through the wp provider complaints process now, or wait for the outcome of the decision maker first, given the info in my previous post?

 

Many thanks

 

Jan

[Mr.P]

What outcome do you desire ?If it is to get the sanction overturned, leave it to the DWP and use their appeal process.If you seek to complain about the false claims made in the benefit doubt, it is doubtful you would get a satisfactory response to any complaint - I would suggest taking it up with the DWP in the first instance and get your MP involved. You could also contact Shiv Malik at the Guardian [email protected] - He is currently investigating unjust sanctions, and your case appears to fit the bill.If you are wanting a different adviser, by all means complain to the provider now and raise concerns about the honesty of the current "adviser".

[Janette40]

Hi - many thanks for your reply. The main outcome that I would hope for is that I will not be put in this situation again. Perhaps an alternative adviser is a way of achieving this. I have drafted a possible letter, again if possible can you give me any feedback - eg anything I should add or anything that is inappropriate:

 

I am writing with reference to a meeting I had with (adviser) at (location) on (date)

 

The adviser appeared to be friendly during the course of the meeting but became hostile when I declined to sign a Data Protection Act consent form (where I understand consent by law needs to be freely given). Her subsequent response was to submit a benefit doubt stating that I had been uncooperative and I feel additional spurious claims were included to add weight. These included stating I had not provided a cv, which was not true as I provided a paper copy. It also included stating I had not provided a photo id, although a photo id had not been requested and during the meeting she accepted the other forms of id i had provided.

 

I feel unhappy proceeding further with this particular adviser due to the clear indications of hostility rather than supportiveness, indications that she may be prone to overreaction which is not only unhelpful but actually detrimental, and to an apparent dishonesty when preparing benefit doubt letters.

 

I have a new appointment arranged on ... and would prefer that it was with a different adviser. I am happy to have the date changed if this is necessary. Also with the open-plan layout of the meetings and the personal nature of the content of the meetings, I would like to request that further meetings be conducted in a private room.

I thought about adding something about asking for assurances if an alternative adviser couldn't be provided but wasn't sure how to word this or if it was necessary.

 

Other points I was considering adding, if relevant were:

- The vulnerability I felt at the sudden change from friendliness to hostility followed by the aggressive move of her turning her disapproval into a benefit doubt (without first checking the legal validity of her claims)

- I asked twice for a copy of the questionnaire answers given but was denied both times (despite wp paperwork stating I will have access to my data at all times)

- some content of the questionnaire answers as given was significantly different to the answers typed by the adviser (I have examples but would rather not put them in a public forum)

- the adviser went to speak with her manager before returning and stopping the appointment and later raising the benefit doubt and I have concerns that the manager may have contributed to the benefit doubt letter.

 

The sanction doubt is another issue and my desired outcome is for there to be no sanction. If it does resolve with a sanction, I'll take the appeal steps and perhaps involve my MP and Shiv Malik at that point, hopefully to get it overturned.

 

Many thanks

 

Jan

Edited February 27, 2014 by Janette40

[Mr.P]

Your letter covers the salient points - I would advise against requesting an alternative date as it has been known for (some) WP providers to keep the original date on their system and initiate a Failure To Attend sanction on the back of it. As you have already found out, this particular group have been creative in their reporting, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect them to act dishonestly again.

 

If you are denied copies of paperwork again, you have the option to submit a Subject Access Request via the JCP/DWP - As the DWP is the data controller for all Work Programme providers, there is a statutory requirement for the DWP and subcontractors to supply ALL records when required. You have to specify that "all data held by " is clearly stated... The downside is it can take forty days to get the information, but at least the DWP do not charge the usual £10 fee... If the SAR takes more than 40 days, you can then lodge a complaint with the ICO - Further grounds for raising the issue with your MP.

 

Before going down the SAR/ICO route, I'd suggest including a request for data in your letter and see if anything comes of it.

[Charlotte_Henderson]

I am on jsa (have been for quite a while now) and have been referred to the work programme. I have an induction meeting coming up to start the work programme with Maximus and I have a few questions.

 

I read that although it is a good idea to bring your cv to the meetings, it isn't recommended to leave a copy with them. I also read that I do not need to sign some (or all?) of the paperwork that they give me to sign.

 

They have sent me a cv template to fill out and bring along although it states I can attach my own cv instead, and they also sent me an action plan stating I agree to do this.

 

My questions are - do I have to sign the action plan if I don't wish for them to retain a copy of my cv, and can I refuse for them to keep either the template or my cv after the meeting?

 

Thanks

 

Jan

 

Apart from signing to say you agree to attend every appointment, sign nothing.

[Janette40]

Many thanks, I took out the bit about the changing the date and added a request for the data and sent it. With the subject access request, I was confused about the £10 fee - is that something I'd have to pay?

 

@Charlotte_Henderson - I havent signed anything yet apart from the security book at the entrance (as I'd want the services to know I was in the building if there was a fire). I don't have a problem signing anything I'm agreeable to as long as it can't be misused at a later date.

[Mr.P]

If you require any data held by a Work Programme provider, the SAR is sent to the DWP - There is no charge for this, so you can spend the £10 saved on something else (a box of chocolates ?).The WP providers are contracted to the DWP, and due to the way the contract is structured, they have to provide all information - In your SAR, you must specify that WP provider data is included, and the entire file comes from the DWP.If you hand a SAR in to the WP provider, they probably wouldn't know what to do with it and/or may try to charge you £10.

[Janette40]

Hi, I received a letter from DWP today stating my benefit has been stopped due to a decision made about a doubt (ie a sanction). The letter stated I need to get in touch by telephone or in writing within one month of the letter. It states I cannot appeal until they have looked at the decision again which they described as a "mandatory reconsideration" in which i can

- ask for an explanation of the decision or

- ask for a written explanation of the reasons of the decision

- ask to look at the decision again to see if it can be changed - "There may be some facts you think we have overlooked, or you may have further information that affects the decision"

 

To be honest, considering the basis of the initial doubt and the wording of my reply (see previous posts) I am truly stunned that the decision has gone this way. The wording in the letter suggested that the 3 options were a choice. Please can you advise on which I need to choose if I cannot choose more than one and what I should make of the "facts you think we have overlooked"

 

Many thanks

 

Jan

[Mr.P]

Has the DWP sent you a copy of the WP08 form that Maximus should have submitted for their part of raising a benefit doubt (a.k.a. sanction) ?

 

If not, you should write back promptly asking for:

 

• A copy of the WP08 submitted by Maximus.
  
• An explanation of the decision and any supporting documents used in reaching this decision.
  
• Finally, request that a Decision Maker looks again at the evidence and reconsiders the decision.
  

I would suggest heading the letter "Formal request to appeal" and see what turns up. I'd also recommend contacting your MP as this sanction appears to be based on the flimsiest of excuses dreamed up by a Maximus "adviser".

[Janette40]

Hi, many thanks for the quick reply. I am writing to Shiv Malik as you suggested in a previous post, I'll also write to my MP as you suggested.

 

When I phoned the DWP to confirm receipt of my reply to the benefit doubt (which took an unnecessarily large number of calls) I was told during one call (and have read elsewhere) that the DWP have added this extra "mandatory reconsideration" step. I'll write the letter as you suggested but should I also try and begin the mandatory reconsideration process in case they refuse to process any other kind of appeal until that has happened?

 

Many thanks

 

Jan

[Mr.P]

You can head the letter "Mandatory reconsideration" or "Formal appeal" - One would hope that either will trigger the correct process.

[Janette40]

Two quick questions, firstly how do you address an MP in a letter, should I use a correct formal title or will "Dear Mr X" be sufficient? Secondly as I am writing to both Shiv Malik and my MP would it be advisable/beneficial to include that I am writing to the other in either/both letters?

 

Many thanks

 

Jan

[Mr.P]

In the address, use:

 

Mr X Smith MP

 

Then in the body of the letter, it would be:

 

Dear Mr X Smith

 

If the MP in question is a cabinet minister (or shadow cabinet), the address would be:

 

Rt Hon. Smith followed by a "Dear Mr X Smith".

 

In response to the last point: No, I wouldn't bother informing MP/press that either party was being contacted - The MP is there to assist in resolving the problem, the press to publicise failings within the Work Programme.

[Janette40]

Hi, many thanks, I meant to say that the letters were emails. Would "Dear Mr X Smith" still be appropriate if there is nowhere to put the full title?

Also for the second point my thinking had been that perhaps the MP might take it more seriously if he was aware the press were involved (as there might be reason to think he would be sympathetic with the sanctions rather than my appeal), but you are probably right and I wont make the references.

[Janette40]

Also, in the letter from the DWP it stated the sanction was based on a decision which included the words "whether you failed to comply with the requirements of the scheme to which you have been referred" - should I add an additional line to the Formal Request to Appeal "a description of which requirements of the scheme I failed to comply to" or is this sufficiently implied in the "explanation of the decision" line? Sorry for so many questions.

[Mr.P]

Hi, many thanks, I meant to say that the letters were emails. Would "Dear Mr X Smith" still be appropriate if there is nowhere to put the full title?

 

If you are using email, then simply put "Dear Mr X Smith", no need to add "Rt Hon" or any other formal titles.

 

Also, in the letter from the DWP it stated the sanction was based on a decision which included the words "whether you failed to comply with the requirements of the scheme to which you have been referred" - should I add an additional line to the Formal Request to Appeal "a description of which requirements of the scheme I failed to comply to" or is this sufficiently implied in the "explanation of the decision" line? Sorry for so many questions.

 

"failed to comply with the requirements of the scheme" is a pretty broad and vague catch-all - You should be asking what these "requirements" were. Without a copy of the WP08, you are not in a position to defend yourself, so you need details of the decision and all documents referred to in making this "decision".

As far as you are concerned, you attending this meeting with the documents that Maximus requested in their letter. You can not be held responsible for failing to produce photo ID if no indication was given that it was required.

[Janette40]

Hi, many thanks again for your reply. I wasn't sure whether you were saying I should or shouldnt add the line. Would something like this include everything I need:

 

Formal request to appeal

 

I am writing in reply to your letter dated (date) which stated that I would not be paid Jobseeker's Allowance between (dates) following a decision made about a benefit doubt.

 

I am writing to request:

• A copy of the WP08 submitted by Maximus.

• An explanation of the decision and any supporting documents used in reaching this decision (including but not limited to a description of which requirements of the scheme I failed to comply to).

• Finally, that a Decision Maker looks again at the evidence and reconsiders the decision.

 

Also please could you notify me of receipt of this letter.

[Mr.P]

Formal request to appeal

 

I am writing in reply to your letter dated (date) which stated that I would not be paid Jobseeker's Allowance between (dates) following a decision made about a benefit doubt.

 

I am writing to request:

• A copy of the WP08 submitted by Maximus.

• An explanation of the decision and any supporting documents used in reaching this decision (including but not limited to a description of which requirements of the scheme I failed to comply with).

• Finally, that a Decision Maker looks again at the evidence and reconsiders the decision.

 

Also please could you notify me of receipt of this letter.

 

Looks fine to me. The wording bracketed in point two is great (just one minor edit) - Once you know the scope of the allegations, you can counter each point should the DM uphold the existing decision.

[Janette40]

Many thanks for your help and the edit. I've sent the 2 emails, the appeal request will need to go regular post so I'll send it off on Monday. I also found this web page which could be helpful to anyone else who needs to appeal against a sanction:

 

http://refuted.org.uk/2014/01/14/sanctionsappeal/

[Janette40]

I contacted my MP asking for them to intercede, but it would seem that they are simply forwarding my emails/letters unedited. The replies were also simply sent back to me. Am I wrong in having expected more than that from them, perhaps a more active or proactive role?

 

Unfortunately Shiv Malik is no longer investigating unjust sanctions. Are there any other reporters currently actively interested?

[Mr.P]

One would hope that your elected MP would do more than act as a mail forwarding service... I suppose it depends on whether the task has been assigned to an office junior or if the MP in question is taking an active interest in your case.

 

Have you had any response(s) to the appeal request yet ?

[Janette40]

One would hope that your elected MP would do more than act as a mail forwarding service

 

Yes I thought that too, is this quite a common response from an MP (especially maybe when benefits related)?

 

No, I haven't had any response from the appeal yet.

[Janette40]

Has anyone else had similar disappointing "help" from their MP?