Work Programme Issues

[PaulBrown85]

Hi guys,

 

Having a bit of a problem with the Work Programme lately, and I have no idea what to do. The Job Centre and Seetec themselves are extremely unhelpful and I'm feeling rather annoyed and wound up with them.

 

The problem is back in March, I was sanctioned on my JSA for missing 2 appointments with Seetec. I had chicken pox and phoned my advisor at Seetec telling her that I wasn't able to make my appointments that week, and she told me there was no problem, thanks for letting her know and she'll see me the following week at my next appointment. Couple of weeks later, I received a letter saying I had missed two appointments and was being sanctioned for 4 weeks due to the fact I didn't send in a "Change of Circumstances" form. My advisor didn't tell me I had to fill this is and I'd never filled one in before so I had no idea I had to do that. So a reconsideration was sent in, which was turned into, without my knowledge, an appeal. Got the decision on that back, and the sanction stood because my advisor lied through the teeth to the decision maker saying I showed no signs of illness (Which she even commented to me on the appointment I went in "Oh your looking very spotty aren't you, how you feeling now?") and that she told me over the phone that I had to contact the Job Centre and tell them I wasn't able to go to Seetec that week (Which she didn't, but surprise, surprise, the calls aren't recorded).

 

This isn't the problem though. Today, 15/8/2013, I received a letter saying I'd missed an appointment with Seetec on the 31/1/13. I have absolutely zero recollection of missing an appointment that day, and I was never told I'd missed an appointment. All I can think of is that at one point, I telephoned my advisor saying that I had to take my son to the doctors because he wasn't well at all, and the appointment fell during an appointment I had. I explained this to her and she told me not to worry, and come in the next day (I think It was for a job search, but I'm not sure). I really have no idea if this was the appointment they're referring too. Simple fact is, I just can't remember ever missing an appointment with them.

 

I asked the JC why I hadn't heard of this earlier, and they said that it had been put on hold along with hundreds of others... yet they contacted me instantly about the incident with the chicken pox. I really have no idea what to do now. The JC said just think back and write down why you missed the appointment, but I just can't remember. Do I just put the doctors appointment with my son and hope that it was that? Which I told her about anyway and she didn't have a problem with? I just can't think what to do and I can't afford another sanction at all.

 

Any help would be great as I'm at an utter loss at the moment.

 

Thanks, Paul

[Mr.P]

Always, always record any conversation with WP provider "advisers" - As you have already found out to your cost, they habitually lie.

 

As for any appointments, before sanctions can be inflicted for failing to attend, they must be made in writing1 - emails, texts, and verbal instructions are not valid. These appointment letters must also contain specific wording explaining the consequences of failing to comply without good reason. Having a contagious infection such as chicken pox would be one such reason. Further more, raising of a benefit doubt (a.k.a. sanction) should be done promptly as soon as reasonable grounds have been established2. Raising a sanction some seven months after the event is hardly likely to be considered "within a reasonable time".

To be honest, I don't think there is much that can be done to overturn the sanction from March, as you should have informed the DWP. You could try another appeal based on the fact that the Seetec "adviser" had failed to provide any written guidance and include any notes from your GP regarding the contagion risk.

 

1) https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/152662/response/376951/attach/5/WP%20JR%20Assurance%20letter%20v%20final%203.pdf

2) http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wp-pg-chapter-6-22-october-2012.pdf - See page 10, para 49

Edited August 15, 2013 by Mr.P

[PaulBrown85]

Thank you so much for the advice Mr.P, it's set my mind at rest.

 

Strangely, I had a call from my advisor at Seetec whilst I was out (this advisor I've had since June or so, so not the advisor who claimed I missed an appointment in January) and he was telling me that he's been back through my appointment history, and he can't see a missed appointment on either of the dates I've given. He's as confused as what I am, yet the woman who the JC contacted stated that I had missed one and they must know why before the 23rd of this month. When I asked how the hell am I supposed to remember what I was doing back then, her response was along the lines of "Not my problem, ask your partner and just try and remember". My partner can't remember anything at all!

 

I've got an appointment tomorrow so we're going to try and get to the bottom of this, as it's confusing and completely out the blue.

[Helen2264]

Hi guys,

 

Having a bit of a problem with the Work Programme lately, and I have no idea what to do. The Job Centre and Seetec themselves are extremely unhelpful and I'm feeling rather annoyed and wound up with them.

 

The problem is back in March, I was sanctioned on my JSA for missing 2 appointments with Seetec. I had chicken pox and phoned my advisor at Seetec telling her that I wasn't able to make my appointments that week, and she told me there was no problem, thanks for letting her know and she'll see me the following week at my next appointment. Couple of weeks later, I received a letter saying I had missed two appointments and was being sanctioned for 4 weeks due to the fact I didn't send in a "Change of Circumstances" form. My advisor didn't tell me I had to fill this is and I'd never filled one in before so I had no idea I had to do that. So a reconsideration was sent in, which was turned into, without my knowledge, an appeal. Got the decision on that back, and the sanction stood because my advisor lied through the teeth to the decision maker saying I showed no signs of illness (Which she even commented to me on the appointment I went in "Oh your looking very spotty aren't you, how you feeling now?") and that she told me over the phone that I had to contact the Job Centre and tell them I wasn't able to go to Seetec that week (Which she didn't, but surprise, surprise, the calls aren't recorded).

 

This isn't the problem though. Today, 15/8/2013, I received a letter saying I'd missed an appointment with Seetec on the 31/1/13. I have absolutely zero recollection of missing an appointment that day, and I was never told I'd missed an appointment. All I can think of is that at one point, I telephoned my advisor saying that I had to take my son to the doctors because he wasn't well at all, and the appointment fell during an appointment I had. I explained this to her and she told me not to worry, and come in the next day (I think It was for a job search, but I'm not sure). I really have no idea if this was the appointment they're referring too. Simple fact is, I just can't remember ever missing an appointment with them.

 

I asked the JC why I hadn't heard of this earlier, and they said that it had been put on hold along with hundreds of others... yet they contacted me instantly about the incident with the chicken pox. I really have no idea what to do now. The JC said just think back and write down why you missed the appointment, but I just can't remember. Do I just put the doctors appointment with my son and hope that it was that? Which I told her about anyway and she didn't have a problem with? I just can't think what to do and I can't afford another sanction at all.

 

Any help would be great as I'm at an utter loss at the moment.

 

Thanks, Paul

 

Do you write down all appointments? that can perhaps jog your memory what you have done during that time! Never ever just ring the dwp or a work programmer always follow it by a letter instantly, Ask your adviser to give you his/her email address straight away so you can send her email when ever you need to!

 

I follow everything with a letter or email if I make a phone either to the dwp or Ingeus, I didn't have my friend's cathy's Ingeus adviser's email I rang the office and ask for her email address so that I can email should I need to!

 

The lady might not have a problem with what you've told her about taking your son to the doctors but it is not her that make the decision about sanctioning it's who ever else that make the decision about sanctions that matter here so again do not trust her reactions, write to the dwp and the seetec and explain why you've your appointment!

[Helen2264]

Thank you so much for the advice Mr.P, it's set my mind at rest.

 

Strangely, I had a call from my advisor at Seetec whilst I was out (this advisor I've had since June or so, so not the advisor who claimed I missed an appointment in January) and he was telling me that he's been back through my appointment history, and he can't see a missed appointment on either of the dates I've given. He's as confused as what I am, yet the woman who the JC contacted stated that I had missed one and they must know why before the 23rd of this month. When I asked how the hell am I supposed to remember what I was doing back then, her response was along the lines of "Not my problem, ask your partner and just try and remember". My partner can't remember anything at all!

 

I've got an appointment tomorrow so we're going to try and get to the bottom of this, as it's confusing and completely out the blue.

 

Write down all your appointment on a calender as soon as you receive your letter for appointments like that you will know what's what if any of the dwp or seetec write to you and if you can't make your appointment write that down on the calender too if you were ill or otherwise that is for your own benefit, it helps a lot trust me that what I do all the times then if dwp or seetec pull any stunt you can tell them straight away!

[PaulBrown85]

That's the thing though Helen, prior to my Chicken Pox illness, I've NEVER missed or even been late for an appointment, so I've had no idea what I'm supposed to do when I was ill etc. Hence why I phoned Seetec. Plus when I went into the Joke Shop (Job Centre) about a problem or question I had with my claim, I was told by the worker I spoke too that because I was with Seetec now, they were dealing with everything, so any problems, questions or anything like that, I was to deal with them instead of the Job Centre. I didn't quite believe that, so I went to ask someone else if that was true, and they confirmed it to me that any problems I had, I had to go to Seetec. That's why I contacted them about my Chicken Pox. At no point did my advisor tell me to contact the JC about a change of circumstances form. A claim which she denied to the decision maker who contacted her.

 

I'm at a loss about this, If I contact my advisor saying I can't make an appointment for reasons beyond my control, and then she tells me not to worry she'll rebook it, why would that be classed as a missed appointment? I've had friends who have done it and nothing has ever come of it. I've had friends who have lied about appointments to get out of job searches, and nothing comes of it. Coupled with the fact my current advisor said there's no record of me missing an appointment on my notes they have, it's confused him too. I shall definitely be bringing a book with me which I will be asking my advisor to sign every visit, and I shall record every conversation I have with them over the phone, letting them know it's being recorded obviously.

 

I'm in agreement with Mr.P on this one though, they've failed to tell me within a reasonable amount of time about an appointment I missed, which I will show them the information that Mr.P has given me. When I missed my appointments through Chicken Pox, they notified me of possible sanction within 3-4 weeks of missing them. 7 months is a bit extreme for them to expect me what I was doing on that day.

[jasta11]

The JC basically wash their hands of you while you're on the WP - they won't look for vacancies for you nor even do a quick jobsearch while you sign on. Total apathy and a 'not my problem for 2 years' attitude.

 

I've read a lot of cases of people unable to make appointments with their WP, phoning in and being told it's okay, only to later find out the WP has referred them to the JC as being absent. It's happening far too often - and at too many different WP's - to be coincidence or a 'communication breakdown'. No doubt the WP's have sanction targets too, as the JC does.

 

I hope your current advisor will back you up with regard to the alleged missed appointment. Definitely need to record everything in future to cover yourself. Good luck.

[Mr.P]

I've got an appointment tomorrow so we're going to try and get to the bottom of this, as it's confusing and completely out the blue.

 

(this may be a bit late, but...)

 

Demand a printout of ALL alleged appointments from your initial referral AND copies of ALL appointment letters. With these printouts in hand, you can check to see which ones were mandatory and which ones were just invites - If any of the latter coincide with the alleged failure to attend dates, you can appeal on the grounds of invalid mandation.

 

I would also recommend that you demand copies of all meeting notes typed up by previous "advisers" and keep these filed away for future reference. If it isn't in writing (or you don't have it on tape), it didn't happen !

[PaulBrown85]

(this may be a bit late, but...)

 

Demand a printout of ALL alleged appointments from your initial referral AND copies of ALL appointment letters. With these printouts in hand, you can check to see which ones were mandatory and which ones were just invites - If any of the latter coincide with the alleged failure to attend dates, you can appeal on the grounds of invalid mandation.

 

I would also recommend that you demand copies of all meeting notes typed up by previous "advisers" and keep these filed away for future reference. If it isn't in writing (or you don't have it on tape), it didn't happen !

 

Hi Mr.P

 

I would request all copies of appointment letters, but they didn't give me any. All my advisor used to do was tell me, verbally, when my appointments were, and sometimes wrote them on a little card for me. The only piece of paper that had my appointments on were my 'review' letters. This told me the date of my next mandatory review appointment. All the others were just job searches where i'd have to attend the building, do a quick job search, then leave. I never actually saw my advisor on Job Search appointments.

 

I know for an absolute fact I have NEVER missed a review appointment, and I also know I've never missed a Job Search appointment, except for the Chicken Pox incident and my sons doctors appointment, both of which I phoned Seetec and explained the situation. My current advisor has told me that my old advisor never used to put it on the system that i'd attended, so there were quite a few that he could see where it said I wasn't present, but there was proof of job search done? I just don't understand it. The exact words from my advisor this afternoon on the phone was:

 

"Can you bring the letter with you tomorrow, as I've been back through the system and I can't see anything about a missed appointment on any of the dates you gave me"

 

I'll definitely be recording every visit I do now for proof should this ever happen again!

[Mr.P]

All my advisor used to do was tell me, verbally, when my appointments were, and sometimes wrote them on a little card for me. The only piece of paper that had my appointments on were my 'review' letters. This told me the date of my next mandatory review appointment.

 

Mandatory appointments that could lead to a sanction if you fail to attend MUST be made in writing and include all the words prescribed on page 3 of the first document I linked to (for all appointments made after 14th Feb 2012). Verbal appointments or scribbled notes on a card are not acceptable.

 

If your new adviser is unable to provide copies of correctly worded letters for the appointments back in January or March, then get it in writing that no such letters exist or were ever issued - With this in hand, you can appeal against any failure to attend sanctions citing invalid or nonexistent mandation.

[speedfreek]

Mandatory appointments that could lead to a sanction if you fail to attend MUST be made in writing and include all the words prescribed on page 3 of the first document I linked to (for all appointments made after 14th Feb 2012). Verbal appointments or scribbled notes on a card are not acceptable.

 

If your new adviser is unable to provide copies of correctly worded letters for the appointments back in January or March, then get it in writing that no such letters exist or were ever issued - With this in hand, you can appeal against any failure to attend sanctions citing invalid or nonexistent mandation.

 

Would a Subject Access Request to the WPP also requesting the postal logs be a good idea in this situation?

 

All WP mail out should be logged. If a letter is not fully recorded as sent, has a different sent date/address or a copy of it not stored it's an easy win at tribunal.

 

Just a thought as it's how you always beat missed ATOS appointments due to missing letters for ESA when it gets to the tribunal. Their logs only show something was sent and there is no copy of the letters.

[PaulBrown85]

Had my appointment at Seetec today, my advisor contacted a member of the Job Centre yesterday, and he told me that they looked into my account and saw no pending sanctions or any indication of a sanction pending. This contradicts what I was told personally at the JC yesterday when I was told that there WAS a pending Benefit doubt over a missed appointment on the 31st January 2013 but the systems hadn't been updated to reflect it.

 

Here's the odd part though... The letter states that I was told on the 21st January 2013 that I had an appointment on the 31st January 2013 and I failed to attend. My advisor showed me my attendance record from January to Now. On the 21st, I contacted Seetec about my sons doctors appointment, my then advisor noted this and told me to come in the next day at 10:30am. I attended the appointment though it wasn't noted in my records. Now the alleged appointment on the 31st January... I DIDN'T have an appointment on that date, there is nothing to suggest I was supposed to be there, and no WP08 letter was sent out around that time either.

 

My advisor printed me a copy of my attendance record, but the thing that's bothering me, is that it says on the record that I didn't attend an appointment on the 4th February 2013. Again, no action was ever taken about this, no WP08 was sent out, and I'm pretty sure I DID attend, but there's no proof of this because Seetec destroyed all sign in/out sheets around that time, they only started keeping them from May, and they don't have access to Financial Records so they said they can't check the travel expense sheets to see if I did attend. The only reason I can think that it says I didn't attend was either my advisor was off on that appointment and it wasn't recorded, or she just simply forgot/wasn't told I attended as it was a Job Search appointment. Could this be dragged up if I show them proof of the none appointment, or is this too far in the past to be sanctioned?

 

I also asked them about the letters I was supposed to receive for every mandatory appointment, and I was told that they don't need to do that, as they supposedly sent me a letter when I very first enrolled saying that ALL appointments were mandatory and if I didn't attend, I may loose my benefit. I told him about the guidelines sent from the DWP to Seetec, but was told they do things differently and it's pretty much the same thing. All in all, my advisor was extremely helpful today and told me that if any questions were asked by the DM, he'd defend me and point out that no appointment was ever scheduled. I'm just a little afraid about using the printout in case they start questioning me about the 4/2/13 appointment. Saying that, Seetec have no proof that I was or wasn't there, and no action was ever taken/

[jasta11]

I told him about the guidelines sent from the DWP to Seetec, but was told they do things differently and it's pretty much the same thing.

 

As far as I'm aware, there's only ONE standard set of Work Programme Provider Guidance documents - and every provider gets them. I've never seen or heard of any 'personalised' versions which only relate to Seetec, A4e, etc. I think your advisor is just giving you the usual BS.

 

Though providors have leeway in designing the content of their courses, they must all abide by standard guidelines - which include letters and how they are required to contact you.

 

It sounds like their entire system is in a mess and they're not bothering to issue anything in writing. The DWP Third Party Contracts investigators would probably be very interested in paying them a visit (they are the people who can tell the provider to change things, or else risk losing their contract).

[osdset]

Seetec hold sway in East London for the provision of the Work Programme and Mandatory Work Activity, as they are pretty much the only game in town they think they can make the rules up as they go along.

[PaulBrown85]

I'm actually in Salford, so i'm not sure if they're the only ones around here.

 

I do agree that they seem to think that the rules don't apply to them, and for all the supposed mandatory appointments I've had, I've never had a letter or anything saying I may loose my benefits should I not attend etc... To be fair, I don't think I've EVER had a letter off them regarding any kind of appointment? I don't think they really care to be honest with you.

 

I'm just a little worried that if I show the proof that I didn't have an appointment on the 31/1/13, and they see that on the printout I've given, it says Client did not attend on the 4/2/13, they'll go digging into that and see why. Even though no action was taken at the time, can they take action now, or is it far too late to do so?

[Mr.P]

DWP issued guidance requires a provider to submit a WP08 within days of a Failure to Attend in order to preserve the link between cause and sanction in the mind of the claimant. However, as you have already found out, some providers seek to ignore the guidance notes and make it up as they go along. Furthermore, the DWP would appear to be sitting on a pile of benefit doubts and are issuing sanctions over a year after the event (thus breaking the cause-sanction link).

 

In your situation, I would blank out any problematic dates and only show evidence that relates to specific times. I would also demand that any mandatory appointments are made in writing in accordance with current DWP procedures - This covers your back and ensures you have documentary evidence for your file and costs the provider money (paper, envelope, stamp, & time).