Form 4 Complaints. More proof that Courts are awarding costs in favour of the bailiff!!!

[tomtubby]

Yet another Form 4 Complaint has been heard in Dartford County Court.

 

The Judge hearing this particular case was His Honour Judge Simpkiss.

 

The complaint was dismissed and the the Complainants were ordered to pay the bailiff costs of the complaint (to be assessed by way of detailed assessment on the indemnity basis).

 

I cannot provide the full details until later as I am reading details of the Judgment on my Blackberry.

 

Of serious concern is that it would "appear" that His Honour Judge Simpkiss dealt with this particular Form 4 Complaint without a hearing.

[brassnecked]

Ouch, no hearing, costs awarded to bailiff, where is the ability to complain about a bailiff if they are naughty if Form 4 is now litigation?

[wonkeydonkey]

It my opinion people are being ill advised and encouraged to submit these complaints as standard, without being given the vital information to the possible penalties they face from these when it all goes belly up.

 

I wonder if this is but one of multiple Form 4's to have been enacted by another site and bailiffs up and down the country are queuing to answer them?

 

WD

[tomtubby]

I now have more details on the Form 4 Complaint.

 

The Form 4 complaint was a joint one between two individuals who were related to each other. The basis of the complaint was that apparently a bailiff had seized a vehicle which another family member "claimed" belonged to her.

 

As the complaint itself was very lengthly and detailed the relevant bailiff or his employer instructed a solicitor to assist with the response to the Form 4 and included with their response to the court a schedule itemising the legal fees that had been incurred with dealing with such a detailed Form 4 complaint.

 

His Honour Judge Simpkiss was critical of the 1st Complainant for not providing satisfactory evidence to prove that she owned the vehicle.

 

He was also critical of the complainants for failing to provide "direct evidence" as opposed to "hearsay statements" to support their complaints.

 

The Form 4 complaint was dealt with without a hearing and dismissed by HHJ Simpkiss.

 

From the information that I have at present the cost that is likely to be payable by the complainants to the bailiff is approx £1,800.

[postggj]

Is it possible to get transcripts of the judges decision on this

 

Getting it direct from the horses mouth, and on paper will do a lot of good in discouraging frivolous use of these legal documents, and highlighting the dangers as well for inappropriate use

[tomtubby]

A transcript will of couse be VERY useful indeed but given the cost I will certainly NOT be purchasing one myself.

[postggj]

They are not public documents to download???

 

And i was under the impression we had an open AND FREE justice system at point of need

 

May i ask how much a court charges for the release of official transcripts out of curiosity. I think it is disgraceful, you can have access to judgements that result in case law, so why not civil proceedings???

[unclebulgaria67]

They are not public documents to download???

 

And i was under the impression we had an open AND FREE justice system at point of need

 

May i ask how much a court charges for the release of official transcripts out of curiosity. I think it is disgraceful, you can have access to judgements that result in case law, so why not civil proceedings???

 

I believe someone asked a court and was quoted about £2k for a transcript. For that amount, I would presume it would come in a leather bound book, lots of gold leaf used etc.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Depending on the size of a transcript cost will vary, there are various companies that will produce them for a fee.

[wonkeydonkey]

As a comparison ...I have recently had a 'client' who had a case discontinued with leave to appeal, to continue to appeal required him to make a request for transcript of the 20 min hearing to the claim, the quote for that was £350.

 

WD

[caledfwlch]

What gets me is the Distress for Rent rules do not seem to make any provision whatsoever for a Form 4 Complaint to be a form of litigation, or indeed for costs to be awarded in an unsuccessful complaint.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1988/2050/article/8/made

 

Complaints as to fitness to hold a certificate

8.—(1) Any complaint as to the conduct or fitness of any bailiff who holds a certificate shall be made to the court from which the certificate issued.

(2) Upon receipt of any such complaint as is referred to in paragraph (1), the proper officer shall send written details of the complaint to the bailiff and require him to deliver a written reply to the court office within 14 days thereafter or within such longer time as the court may specify.

(3) If the bailiff fails to deliver the reply within the time specified, or if upon reading the reply the Judge is unsatisfied as to the bailiff’s fitness to hold a certificate, the proper officer shall issue a notice summoning the bailiff to appear before the Judge on a specified date and show cause why his certificate should not be cancelled.

(4) The proper officer shall send a copy of the notice to the complainant and any other interested party.

(5) At the hearing:—

(i)the bailiff shall attend for examination and may make representations, and

(ii)the complainant may attend and make representations.

(6) The procedure to be followed at the hearing, including the calling of evidence, shall be such as the Judge considers just, and he may proceed with the hearing notwithstanding that the bailiff has failed to attend.

 

The legislation purely describes a Complaints procedure. From that text, then in theory Local Authorities, or the DWP for example could begin charging us costs when we make official complaints that are not upheld - like their regs, the form 4 regs do not provide any mention or provision for costs!

[tomtubby]

What gets me is the Distress for Rent rules do not seem to make any provision whatsoever for a Form 4 Complaint to be a form of litigation, or indeed for costs to be awarded in an unsuccessful complaint.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1988/2050/article/8/made

 

Complaints as to fitness to hold a certificate

8.—(1) Any complaint as to the conduct or fitness of any bailiff who holds a certificate shall be made to the court from which the certificate issued.

(2) Upon receipt of any such complaint as is referred to in paragraph (1), the proper officer shall send written details of the complaint to the bailiff and require him to deliver a written reply to the court office within 14 days thereafter or within such longer time as the court may specify.

(3) If the bailiff fails to deliver the reply within the time specified, or if upon reading the reply the Judge is unsatisfied as to the bailiff’s fitness to hold a certificate, the proper officer shall issue a notice summoning the bailiff to appear before the Judge on a specified date and show cause why his certificate should not be cancelled.

(4) The proper officer shall send a copy of the notice to the complainant and any other interested party.

(5) At the hearing:—

(i)the bailiff shall attend for examination and may make representations, and

(ii)the complainant may attend and make representations.

(6) The procedure to be followed at the hearing, including the calling of evidence, shall be such as the Judge considers just, and he may proceed with the hearing notwithstanding that the bailiff has failed to attend.

 

The legislation purely describes a Complaints procedure. From that text, then in theory Local Authorities, or the DWP for example could begin charging us costs when we make official complaints that are not upheld - like their regs, the form 4 regs do not provide any mention or provision for costs!

 

 

 

I share your views entirley....however His Honour Judge Cryan did not agree and full details of his reasons can be found in the 1st post here:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?389403-Form-4-Complaints-Copies-of-Judgments-where-costs-have-been-awarded-in-favour-of-the-Bailiff-%21%21%281-Viewing%29-nbsp

[brassnecked]

Can only agree with Caled and TT, perhaps they are frightened that if Form 4 is used frequently it may undermine their little earner called enforcement, or is it me being cynical?

[tomtubby]

It seems that YET AGAIN another forum (well known to this site) is "claiming" that a "Form 4" Judgment that I had provided a copy of on CAG was NOT in fact a Form 4 Compliant and they are stating that Croydon County Court confirmed to him ( Happy Contrails) today that the order is a "fake".

 

Given the seriousness of his allegation, I would at the very least expect to see a copy of the letter from Croydon County Court as evidence. Somehow, I suspect that this will not be forthcoming.

 

Since the awful allegation, I have now spoken with the bailiffs companies legal representative and I am reliably informed that the CORRECT position is that the complaint was indeed started as a FORM 4 COMPLAINT.

 

The basis of the complaint concerned the level of fees charged by the bailiff.

 

The Form 4 Complaint was heard initially before HHJ Blunsdon in June 2011 who ordered that the disputed fees be the subject of Detailed Assessment. This was a very sensible appraoch indeed by the Judge as otherwise, the complainant would have been liable for the court application fee of £300 for seeking "Detailed Assessment".

 

 

To confirm....this matter started as a Form 4 Complaint and once again, this case demonstrates very clearly indeed that the complainant should not have made a Form 4 Complaint.

 

A link to my original post can be read here (Post number 4).

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?389403-Form-4-Complaints-Copies-of-Judgments-where-costs-have-been-awarded-in-favour-of-the-Bailiff-%21%21%281-Viewing%29-nbsp

Edited May 20, 2013 by tomtubby