Contravention 31 - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited

[atonu]

I thank everybody for their comments. I wish to present the following argument.

The contravention is quite simply “entering a box junction when yourexit is not clear”. It is possible to stop within a yellow box (YBJ) withoutcommitting an offence. For example if at the time you entered the box the exitwas clear but then a lorry cut in front of you and stopped, forcing you to stopin the yellow box. In fact the independent adjudicator has upheld appealsagainst Tfl and other councils on this point. In one case transport for Londonsaid the vehicle was obstructing the box but because that is not part of thedefined contravention and they did not produce evidence of the vehicle actuallyentering the box when its exit was not clear the appeal against them wasupheld.

To prove a contravention the enforcing authority must be able to showthat at the time that you entered the box the exit was blocked by stationarytraffic.

In my case, I entered the YBJ when the exit was clear. As I approachedthe exit, the car in the front stopped suddenly forcing me to stop. Therefore,my stopping is justified. To prove that I entered the YBJ when exit was notclear, the council must be able to present CCTV footage and there is no suchfootage.

[liverbird37]

Sailor Sam and citizenkain are bang on. You should not have moved into the yellow box UNTIL you knew you had a clear exit on the other side which you didn't.

 

I have to drive over lots of yellow box junctions each day, and I absolutely refuse to enter until the car in front has cleared the box, and has left room for me to exit clearly. I see so many drivers every day, the lights go green, all the cars move, without any thought for whether or not they will get across. Many of them don't, and get a ticket from the camera car.

 

It's simple isn't it ? If your exit isn't clear, then don't enter the box. The ticket looks justified to me. The fact that a car on the other side suddenly stopped isn't relevant, as you drove into the box along with other cars, thinking that a gap would become available. It didn't, you got stuck in the box. Bad judgement on your part.

 

I wouldn't doubt sailor Sam or citizenkains judgements for a second.

[sailor sam]

Post deleted

Edited April 20, 2013 by sailor sam

[sailor sam]

I thank everybody for their comments. I wish to present the following argument.

The contravention is quite simply “entering a box junction when yourexit is not clear”. It is possible to stop within a yellow box (YBJ) withoutcommitting an offence. For example if at the time you entered the box the exitwas clear but then a lorry cut in front of you and stopped, forcing you to stopin the yellow box. In fact the independent adjudicator has upheld appealsagainst Tfl and other councils on this point. In one case transport for Londonsaid the vehicle was obstructing the box but because that is not part of thedefined contravention and they did not produce evidence of the vehicle actuallyentering the box when its exit was not clear the appeal against them wasupheld.

To prove a contravention the enforcing authority must be able to showthat at the time that you entered the box the exit was blocked by stationarytraffic.

In my case, I entered the YBJ when the exit was clear.

 

But you didn't, there was a car in front of you.

 

As I approachedthe exit, the car in the front stopped suddenly forcing me to stop. Therefore,my stopping is justified.

 

Good luck with that argument because you are going to need it.

 

To prove that I entered the YBJ when exit was notclear, the council must be able to present CCTV footage and there is no suchfootage.

 

There is and it shows you stopped within the box.

 

I have given my opinion and observations so as far as i'm concerned that's as far as I can go with it. Please feel free to appeal and come back to tell us the outcome. I am always happy to be proven wrong.

 

Please Note

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[liverbird37]

I'm confused now. You say your exit was clear before you entered the box, but there were cars in front of you. You state you moved with the cars in front when the lights went green.

 

If your exit was clear before you entered the box, but a pedestrian caused the cars in front to suddenly stop, therefore blocking your exit, that would surely mean that the clear exit you apparently had, must have been blocked by the car in front of you reversing into the available gap. It doesn't make sense that if there was a clear gap, that the car in front would suddenly block it unless he either reversed into it, or a car turned left from the junction into it.

[atonu]

I thank everybody for their comments.

It will certainly help me in taking the right action on the road in future.

 

At present, I am talking about the CCTV footage that will determine if the exit was alreadyobstructed prior to my entering the box. In other words, what was the state oftraffic at the point of entering the box? Such a CCTV footage is not there.

[DaveyBT]

See here and pay particular attention to the first paragraph;

OK - I agree that according to this article you have to enter the box AND stop within the box. However, please read the other parts of the article that I've highlighted below. It seems that some of this "discussion" is because different (PATAS) adjudicators have differing views on what the Regulations actually mean in practice.

I suggest that the OP carefully reads through the material on the Tisketfighter sight (and other forums) and the PATAS cases cited to build his own picture of how to assess and challenge his pcn.

 

The yellow box regulation only applies to a vehicle which is stopped. A vehicle which is moving slowly cannot be ticketed... The offence ... is therefore committed when you enter the box. So if circumstances afterwards change, such as a vehicle changing lanes and blocking your exit, the ticket is invalid.

The Place Invaders v TfL case also makes the point that it is when you enter the box that is relevant. However a note of caution! Another adjudicator has recently completely contradicted these cases and stated that “It does not occur at the vehicle’s point of entry to the box but at the point at which the vehicle stops”. Suffice to say I and the appellant do not agree with this. The implications are huge. In practice it means that every vehicle would have to wait for the one in front to clear the junction before they go!

The authority must have video evidence of your vehicle when it enters the box (as show in this case) and stopped and this evidence must show also that the exit was not clear when you entered.

 

As detailed in the regulations below, the offence is stopping in the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles. Therefore stopping for another reason such as a red light, pedestrians etc is not an offence. The authority must prove there were stationary vehicles in front of the box