Un-named road, broken double yellow lines

[paulgmb]

Hi all,

I have a PCN for parking on double yellow lines which are broken. Thats the reason I parked there as as far as I knew this meant they were inactive and certainly advice I've seen on here in the past supported that. When did that change and what is the regulation that says they do have to be continuous and barred at each end?

The council recently repainted all DYL's around the town that were broken or worn and painted in all the gaps that had been left where repairs had been made to the road. Some of these were only 1-2 feet!

The lines where I parked were not re-painted and are in a service road under a shopping centre which does not have a street name. Does this make a differance?

I asked the council what they meant by 'Parking in a restricted street during prescribed hours' and was asked if I had parked in a residents only parking bay. Only after my 'Informal appeal' are they refering to DYL's.

I have questioned whether the council have jurisdiction over an un-named service road, they say they do. They say it was obvious there were DYL's but not being joined it was obvious to me they were inactive.

The road quoted on the ticket is the shopping centre above the service road.

Lastly I read on another thread that the ticket should say 'Date of issue' as if it doesn't then it is contrary to RTA 1991 section 66(3). My ticket says 'Date of contravention, time of contravention.'

Thanks for any advice you can give me.

[sailor sam]

The road needs to be maintained at the public expence for it to be covered by enforcement. As for the lines, see here; http://www.ticketfighter.co.uk/parking.htm#yellowlines

 

It might help if you gave us the location so we could see on Street View.

 

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[green_and_mean]

The road needs to be maintained at the public expence for it to be covered by enforcement.

 

Sorry thats not correct any public highway can be enforced.

[sailor sam]

Sorry thats not correct any public highway can be enforced.

 

But that's what I meant. The OP is suggesting that the road is a 'service road' to a shopping centre thus being privately maintained so possibly not considered to be part of the 'public highway'. I am merely pointing out that may not be the case.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[green_and_mean]

But that's what I meant. The OP is suggesting that the road is a 'service road' to a shopping centre thus being privately maintained so possibly not considered to be part of the 'public highway'. I am merely pointing out that may not be the case.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

Public highway and public maintained are not the same thing so you may have confused people.

 

On the subject of the RTA 1991 unless you live in Scotland you are barking up the wrong tree.

[sailor sam]

OP, you need to establish if the road is in fact, a public highway and NOT a private road. The DYLs will be subject to a TMO so you should find out from the LA's website.

 

Please Note

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[green_and_mean]

OP, you need to establish if the road is in fact, a public highway and NOT a private road. The DYLs will be subject to a TMO so you should find out from the LA's website.

 

Please Note

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

I don't know why you are sighing you were wrong your advice was wrong, if you meant the road was not public highway then you should have said that rather than waffling on about maintained at public expense which is totally irellevant.

[sailor sam]

I don't know why you are sighing you were wrong your advice was wrong, if you meant the road was not public highway then you should have said that rather than waffling on about maintained at public expense which is totally irellevant.

 

I think it was quite obvious what I meant. OP was asking if enforcement extended to a 'service road' in a shopping centre. I was saying that yes, if it's classed as part of the public highway which is usually a road maintained by the LA is it not? Obviously he hasn't identified the location so I further suggested he checks with the LA.

 

Not sure what your beef is G & M but it seems you just love nothing better than being pedantic and argumentative. You must be a scream to have a few beers with. God forbid that I ever have that honour.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[green_and_mean]

I think it was quite obvious what I meant. OP was asking if enforcement extended to a 'service road' in a shopping centre. I was saying that yes, if it's classed as part of the public highway which is usually a road maintained by the LA is it not? Obviously he hasn't identified the location so I further suggested he checks with the LA.

 

Not sure what your beef is G & M but it seems you just love nothing better than being pedantic and argumentative. You must be a scream to have a few beers with. God forbid that I ever have that honour.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

I'm not arguing you made a mistake I corrected it and you continued to labour the point by trying to change the meaning of what you said and then made a sarcastic sigh, all you had to do was say 'sorry yes I meant public highway not public maintained' and then moved on! But as you say its pointless argument anyway as the OP has run off.

[paulgmb]

Thanks guys, not run off at all, just been tied up over the weekend. Also I used to get emails saying when someone has replied, checked last night (emails) and nothing. Logged on here today and 8 replies!!

Anyway. The service road is beneath King Edward Court Shopping Centre in Windsor. I often park there when shopping as all the yellow lines are incomplete are therefore as I had been told previously, not valid. This is the first time I have got a ticket. I'm told off the record that the council are cracking the whip so their enforcement officers are ticketing everything that isn't moving!

I have also looked back over previous threads going back to 2007 and advice I got then before it went over to council control the following year. I was referred to TSRGD 2002. Is this still valid?

I've not yet tried street maps but will do. The only signs at the entrance say 'Service Road' this is on a directional sign and there are restrictions 'No vehicles between 2130and 0430' which are aways ignored as clubbers and dancers from a club always park there and are never ticketed.

As I said all the yellow lines where they were broken have been repainted, wonder why??

Dearly I would like to know if the original guidance is still correct and if not when did this change and did that case set a prescident or not?

Many thanks once again.

[paulgmb]

Anyone?

[sailor sam]

Looking at it on street view, the lines look 'official' to me. The 'No vehicles' sign is irrelevant as it seems to only apply at night between the hours quoted.

 

As I said previously, you need to establish that the road is part of the public highway and is subject to a traffic order. If it isn't then the contravention did not occur.

 

Ask the LA to show you a copy of the traffic order is my advice.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[paulgmb]

Many thanks Sam. Your help and advice has been very helpful.

I just wondered if the fact they put the name of the shopping centre rather than service road on the ticket had any bearing and/or roads had to be named?

If you looked on street view as you near the end of the service road, just around the corner there are 2 spaces on the right hand side facing some shops. These were clearly parking spaces at some time. The DYL's are broken and I have photos of these. Going back to my original post I hope that some or all of the arguments will be sufficent for my appeal.

Thanks again.

 

Paul.

[sailor sam]

Did you check to see if there is a traffic order relating to the area where you parked?

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[paulgmb]

I have a link to the councils website where the traffic order is. It doesn't mention any streets by names, is that correct?

 

I would have thought that streets covered would have to be named? In the 55 page document it names streets where parking/business permits are mandatory?

 

At night people are double parked all the way along this service road but tickets are never issued as well as on DYL's in residential areas elsewhere in the town.

 

Lastly the street name on the ticket now differs to what they have referred to it in an email. They have added 'Service Road' on the end of it. Like I have said before there i no street name at either end of the road.

 

Thanks for any further advice you can give.

[Jamberson]

I don't see how the traffic order can say anything meaningful without giving street names. Seems very odd to me.

 

I wouldn't trouble about what they wrote in an email - it's not relevant to the PCN.

 

What's the state of play with your PCN? It was months ago.

[paulgmb]

Thats what I thought! When I asked them to direct me to the TMO which covered the un-named service road, they came back sarcastically saying if I didn't know the name of the road.... It wasn't I didn't know, just that it doesn't have a name!!

 

The ticket refers to 'King Edward Court' which is the shopping centre above however in an email reply recently where I asked them to direct me to which of the 55 pages of the TMO mentions the above they said I was parked in 'King Edward Court Service Road' which is not what my ticket says.

 

The current state of play is I made an informal appeal which was rejected. I couldn't make a further appeal until I received a notification to driver which despite me chasing didn't recive until the beginning of May more than 3 months after the date of the ticket!!

 

Just doing the appeal now so all helpful advice gratefully received.

[Jamberson]

You need to ask for the order covering the road which is named on the PCN, and see what that says about the precise spot you parked in. If it isn't there, you need to ask the Highways people in the council what the official name of that location is, and ask for the traffic order for that. Ultimately, if they can't or won't provide it, you have a case to take to adjudication on the basis that it appears to you not to have a Traffic Order governing it, rendering the PCN invalid.

[sailor sam]

You need to ask for the order covering the road which is named on the PCN, and see what that says about the precise spot you parked in. If it isn't there, you need to ask the Highways people in the council what the official name of that location is, and ask for the traffic order for that. Ultimately, if they can't or won't provide it, you have a case to take to adjudication on the basis that it appears to you not to have a Traffic Order governing it, rendering the PCN invalid.

 

I've been saying this (or trying to) since the beginning of February!

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[Jamberson]

Yes. The OP said, "I asked them to direct me to the TMO which covered the un-named service road" - which might be the problem. He needs the order for the location given on the PCN, not where the car was.

[paulgmb]

Thanks both, just to clarify they said I was parked in 'King Edward Court' which is a pedestrianised shopping centre with flats above it. I was parked in a service road which does not have a name underneath the shopping centre. I have asked them whereabouts in the TMO is King Edward Court or the un-named service Road named. I scanned all 55 pages of it, no mention. Their reply was ' The traffic regulation Order does not contain list of roads covered by the regulation , Traffic Regulation Orders apply to the whole Borough. Traffic Regulation Order sets out the law that council enforces in relation to parking'.

 

In relation to where I was parked the PCN states 'King Edward Court'. In an email from them where I have questioned the name of the road they state ....' I understand the name of the road as being King Edward Court Service Road and it is adopted'.

 

Thats not the road stated on my PCN or certainly not in full!!

 

I will ask again for the order covering that road.

 

Many thanks.

[Jamberson]

Unless I am mistaken, you have been given completely false info. Not necessarily maliciously - they probably just don't know what they are talking about.

 

The order should state precise restrictions in precise locations - for example,

 

London Road, 2 meters north of junction with High Street, for a length of 50 metres, no waiting at any time.

 

There should be many many of these, covering all the streets. You should find what you can for King Edward Court and (whatever they decide to name it) see if the spot where you car was parked is listed and a specific restriction described. If it is not, there's not restriction there and no basis for a PCN. If it is, well then you're busted!

[green_and_mean]

Unless I am mistaken, you have been given completely false info. Not necessarily maliciously - they probably just don't know what they are talking about.

 

The order should state precise restrictions in precise locations - for example,

 

London Road, 2 meters north of junction with High Street, for a length of 50 metres, no waiting at any time.

 

There should be many many of these, covering all the streets. You should find what you can for King Edward Court and (whatever they decide to name it) see if the spot where you car was parked is listed and a specific restriction described. If it is not, there's not restriction there and no basis for a PCN. If it is, well then you're busted!

 

Having seen the Windsor TRO it seems the roads are shown on a plan rather than listed and I haven't seen the plan just the text so we are none the wiser as to the validity of the matter.

[paulgmb]

Thank you all for your help.

 

I will email them today and ask for a copy of the plan.

[TheBogsDollocks]

If you've been parking in that location for a considerable time (a period of months rather than weeks) without ever being penalised or warned then mention this in your appeal and advise that you had formed a "legitimate expectation" that parking in the location (due to the poor condition of the lines) was acceptable and if the council had now considered it unacceptable then it would have been appropriate to at least give warning notices prior to the commencement of enforcement.