Accused of receiving OverPayment of Salary for 3 years.

[Sugar Plum]

I must sincerely apologise, I was unaware I could not put on the emails from another person it will not happen again and thanks for letting me know.

[honeybee13]

It's OK. It's our job to look after caggers' interests.

 

HB

[Sidewinder]

Hi Julesmo

 

Far safer to do as Fox Morris suggested and to summarise points from the email in your own words.

[Sugar Plum]

Hi everyone here is an update in my own words.

 

I had the meeting with my boss, the evidence that I asked him to provide from last year, still was not produced because there isn't any. He said he would give it me on the 23rd Jan.

 

He admitted that the mistake was nothing to with any of my actions and I said I can’t be held responsible for somebody else’s mistake, which he agreed.

 

He then went on to say he feels they are entitled to recover some of the money, I said not from me I have no intentions of giving acceptance and consent to any recouping. He was very polite in the meeting and even said he is sympathetic towards me with what’s happened.

 

The next day he was out at a meeting and I was going through the emails and came across an email from his solicitor.

 

What’s happened is he instantly sent the solicitor the case which I sent him, and the solicitor contacted the Barrister in the case who told him they would not be able to recover payments, but they may have a defence that I continued to work for the part time salary.

 

In my defence I would be a fool to leave until the situation is resolved because, the way they cut my salary with no notice, I had direct debits to pay, rent, loans etc etc etc, and wasn’t given the opportunity to contact my creditors to discuss lower payments or anything. So some wage coming in was better than none, which would have meant me becoming homeless because in this climate being able to get a job instantly is extremely unlightly. Aslo I wanted to main a working relationship and not create hostile working environment.

 

They started talking about trying to use the redundancy card but have to make sure it appears they are following the correct selection criteria for termination, my boss replied basically was he would say that due to slow business they have to get rid of one of the secretary’s and that would be me because I’m the inferior secretary. OMG couldn’t believe it. The other secretary is my assistant who works 4 mornings a week and could not possibly begin to be able to do the work I do, she is lovely I don’t want to bad mouth her. Very polite and obedient with them, at the end of the day she couldn’t do my job its impossible.

 

My boss then went on to say he has been speaking with the other partner in London office and they have agreed the best way to get rid of me is to offer me a redundancy settlement.

 

I was horrified when I read this letter and instantly drafted a letter telling him I have read the emails (he appointed me with authority to read and deal with all emails including Private and Confidential, print, copy, scan, file respond to etc) and take extreme offence to what they are planning. I also said I want to know what date I will be receiving all monies due to me excluding the usual deductions for tax and NI. Due to his admission stating I had nothing to do with it.

 

I haven’t sent the letter yet thought I better calm down and see if anyone had any advice on how I should construct the letter, I want to tell them that I am going ahead with court proceedings in the light of what I have learnt recently.

 

They were not expecting me to fight them; my boss said to the solicitor they have to be box clever basically because I have them at every turn.

 

I asked for the information that was suggested to me on here, but on second thoughts I don't need any information from because he has admitted everything, so all I would need is my money back and salary reinstating.

 

I have started to look for another job because of whats come to light but they don't know that. and I wont leave until I get what is owed to me.

 

 

I think they are extremely unfair this all arose from their supposedly mistake, but I must be the one punished by taking my money, and now trying to find a way to get rid of me. All because I stood up for myself OMG what a liberty.

 

Any advice please.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Sugar Plum

[becky2585]

If I was the employer, I'd dismiss you for snooping amongst the private (and legally privileged) company emails.

 

You'll be lucky if you aren't disciplined, to be honest.

[Sugar Plum]

I didn't snoop I have to read all the emails is a requirement of my job.

If you choose to comment on my post at least try reading the whole thing so you have the full picture and correct information.

 

Thanks

Edited January 20, 2013 by Sugar Plum

[becky2585]

I didn't snoop I have to read all the emails is a requirement of my job.

If you choose to comment on my post at least try reading the whole thing so you have the full picture and correct information.

 

Thanks

 

It's a requirement of your job to read your boss' emails which are about you and quite clearly not meant to be read by you?...

 

I only see one way this can end, and I suspect they'll offer you an exit package (the alternative to which would probably be dismissal). Your boss was pretty stupid leaving them where you could find them, though.

[Sugar Plum]

I think you misunderstand there are NO exceptions as to which emails I have to read, they ALL with no exceptions have to be read by me.

 

I didn't go into my bosses office and read his emails.

 

They set it up so I have a separate office email box which every single email coming and going in and from the office is my sole responsibility to deal with, which is why I stated I was appointed and authorised to read them. Hope this clears it up for you.

 

When they set up the system last year I told them I dont think its a good idea but they chose to ignore me and this is the result.

 

He usually goes in the office before me and deletes all the ones from the solicitor, its not my fault he didn't get round to it in time to conduct his underhand work.

[steampowered]

I understand why you are horrified, but I don't think you will achieve anything by writing this letter. It does not seem that any final decisions have been made. I think you are better off just waiting and seeing what decision they make and how much the redundancy offer (if any) is.

 

I think you should remind your boss that you have access to and are required to read all emails. I don't think you can be criticised for seeing the emails which came through already, it is not your fault that the proper privacy settings were not in place. However, if you didn't tell your boss about this and continued to read emails which come through in future that would be misconduct. I think you should approach your boss and explain that, in the course of your work, you have seen some emails you did not think you were supposed to see and your boss may wish to put in place proper IT arrangements if he wants to prevent this from happening again. After the conversation I would follow up with an email confirming the discussion.

 

I think the comments above about "snooping" are unfair. In professional services it is very normal for a secretary to deal with emails. My secretary has access to all my emails. My boss gets hundreds of emails a day (many of them are addressed to people like myself and I will deal with them, but the client copies the boss for his information). Most of the bosses' emails are dealt with and filed by the secretary. A lot of people don't understand the various different privacy settings in Outlook properly. In Outlook, people with access to your inbox such as secretaries can access emails marked "confidential" but they cannot access emails marked "private". We do get told about this in training, but the "confidential" descriptor is quite misleading so I can see how people don't always remember the significance of the different settings.

[Sugar Plum]

Thanks for your advice appreciate it, unfortunately I sent him the letter last night. I don't mind being made redundant for legitimate reasons, but they are fabricated and being used as a tool not to give me back my deductions. If they return monies owed to me first and then offer me redundancy

 

I would accept. It's the principal first they withhold my money and then indirectly call me a liar and a thief because I supposedly knew I wasn't meany to get my salary and didn't tell them.

 

Then because I standup for my rights and won't roll over, they start making up lies about my abilities to perform my job as an excuse to terminate me.

 

We all had a meeting when they wanted to change the email system. I said I think it's stupid idea because there will be no privacy as everyone in the office can read and see all emails.

I was told well we shouldnt be getting personal emails through our work email address anyway.

I asked what about private and confidential everyone will be able to see them, I was told is company business so that's ok if everyone sees them.

 

The person that set it up was a IT guy that worked with us. I aired my views was told its going ahead. If he knew his job properly he should of put the practice in action what you said, but again he didn't.

 

There are so many areas this system is stupid and is defeating the the whole purpose, which I pointed out the areas but they know best so I left them to it

 

I personally informed all my friends etc don't send any emails to my work email but instead to my hotmail.

 

Thanks for your advice steampowered i well come any further help

[MrHat]

It's interesting that the employer is behaving disgracefully here but the employee has to tread on eggshells to avoid being in the wrong. However, that is the way it is and the advice on this thread looks sound to me.

 

Good luck, but be careful that you stay in the moral and technical high ground

[jackieandwayne]

Julesmo, don't you give up on this. Do you know how I would view this? You are already under stress over the money, they have tormented you relentlessly about it since March 2012? Enough to affect anyone's mental health I expect. But what really would tip me over the edge is to read what you have read through no fault of your own. That would be enough to send me off to the GP suffering from a complete case of the abdabs at having read such a horrible document, written by people I worked with for years and trusted. What a pig of a boss to let you see that. See where we might be going with this one?

 

Good luck, and if there is a way to resolve this in your favour, you go and have a go!

[Sugar Plum]

Thank you guys it does help knowing that other people can see my point of view, so I have been seeing these emails for the last couple of months but this is the first time I seen they were planning on termination. He told them they have to be careful because I have authorised access to emails and he would put them on a stick and remove them, but because hes at meetings a lot he didn't always get in the office before me.

 

He's also been sending emails about me and the process to one of our clients who is a quantity surveyor, I don't understand why surely the grievance process is confidential and I don't think he's allowed to do that, I may be wrong I have been trying to find out.

 

I see it as I have nothing to loose because of there intentions to terminate me so, what the hell I'm going to stick with it.

 

I emailed him the letter last night, when I went in the office the email I sent him was marked unread and deleted without reading, so I printed it out signed it and left it on his desk and wrote hand delivered, so he cant say he didn't receive it. Low and behold I went on to the office emails and guess what I don't have access to them anymore they said the email system is down and there trying to repair it, when the emails have gone down in the past its never taken all day to get them back up and running and they only went down when I got in.

 

He left the office before I got in today and never returned. So I will wait to see what he has to say tomorrow. Keep you updated.

 

It has been affecting me constant headaches and not being able to sleep, rashes developing on my face, arms but they don't stay for long, it is extremely stressful but hey ho got to get on with it.

 

Thanks for your support it means a lot:wink:

[Sugar Plum]

I received a letter back from my boss today, I feel like Im going round in circles and banging my head.

 

He said the error was explained after I "expressed concerns" down playing my Grievance letter. He goes on to say he further elaborated upon when we last me in April which I accepted:shock: (TOTAL LIE I have the recording) and I did not request any further supporting documents on that occassion.

 

He has no reason to believe I did not accept the position as explained at the meeting and I have continued to work for them at my current level of pay. To avoid anymore confusion about recovering the overpayment they have not made any deductions my pay was corrected to reflect my hours.

 

After writing to me in January about the companies finances I was invited to discuss any proposals I may have for repaying the money I received in error.. I have not not made any proposals and they dont hold out any reasonable expectations that I will and they accept that.

 

What the hell, he has totally ignorned everything him accepting I had no part in any wrong doing, or reinstating my salary or giving me back my money. And there attempts to get rid of me by making up lies with the solicitor.

 

I have written another letter that I am going to give him tomorrow. I have outlined everything he has missed out.

 

I also wrote I belive they deliberately and purposely dragged there feet for as long as youcould in hopes of using that my continued working for XXXXXXXXXwouldhave an unfavourable effect in the hopes ofhaving more knowledge than myself “variation of my employment contract “advisedby your solicitor.

 

I didnot want to create a hostile working environment, and did not expect XXXXXXXXX to allow this to lead to an atmosphere of prevarication andindecision due to this job being my only form of income. I would not give upfor the facts are I had no part in alleged overpayments, and was not preparedto make myself homeless. I might add I also have a reference letter from you tothe lettings agent. My understanding in your eyes would be I give up work andmake myself homeless to make a point, I’m sorry but I am not prepared to dothat. By XXXXXXXX actions I have accrued enough debts to last alife time but I still barely have a roof over my head.

I have always stated I donot and did not consent to any deductions of my salary. You did not ask forconsent XXXXXXXXX went ahead and made the UNLAWFULDEDUCTIONS after all my protests in my Grievance email and our meetings whichwas clearly deducted sometime before the 29th March 2012 as it hasto go through payroll before a days notice. I maintain I was given a genuinepay rise which is stated in my letter.

 

Atno point was redundancy ever discussed for employees in the XXXXXXXXOffice becauseof the suggested downturn in business before I wanted to stand up for my rights.Audited accounts show that XXXXXXXXX continue to make profits as theaccounts are given to me for me to put in the tender documents

Not taking anything away from XXXXXX as she is a lovely lady. Tomy knowledge this has never in all my years working for XXXXXXXXbeenestablished as I have never seen XXXXXX do some the tasks I have to perform,the simple day to day tasks yes but not Tenders etc plus she works 4 mornings aweek.

 

I have read the above emails and previous emails from yoursolicitor because of the way you set up the email system where I have to as apart of my role is to read ALL not excluding Private & Confidential,distribute, reply, print, copy, scan, file but not limited to deal with.

 

It is not my intention to escalate work tensions. I am mentallyand physically exhausted by the dishonourable actions and have lost all trustand confidence in but I will not be forced out by the discriminatory injusticeinflicted on me while these proceedings are taking place.

 

Because of the length of time this has taken I require a quickresponse. If it is XXXXXXX intentions to continue with theirrecent course of action, I will have no choice but to seek resolution in PublicCourt, which you will be notified in due course unless you intend to rectify thesituation.

 

 

Please reply to this letter within 3 days.

 

I have added all the stuff the solictor said and what he said too but too many names to delete so not put it on here.

 

Any advice if I should changed this or leave it as it is, I have typed it so fast that there maybe some spelling errors.

 

 

[steampowered]

Personally, I think you should reduce the level of emotion. It know is a very stressful situation, but raising the temperature by going in all guns blazing is not going to achieve the best result. I think it would be best to keep the letter factual. Try to avoid using unnecessary adjectives and statements of opinion. Do not accuse your employer of being "dishonourable" and do not state that you have lost "all trust and confidence". You want to make it sounds like this situation can be resolved, you do not want to make them feel that the relationship has gone so badly wrong that they have no choice but to terminate you and accept the financial consequences of an ET claim.

 

I find your letter a little difficult to follow, but this is understandable because I don't have all the background and I guess it needs to be read with the response which I have not seen. That said, I would suggest covering the following points:

 

- I was awarded a pay rise on [date in 2009] pursuant to a pay letter dated [date]. I accepted this pay rise which formed part of my employment contract. [briefly and factually address the points made by your boss in relation to this - if your boss has made points which are untrue just point that out in a factual way without any statements of outrage].

- Accordingly my salary was [salary] from [date in 2009]. There was nothing to suggest that this was incorrect.

- There was no overpayment. My salary cannot be reduced retrospectively. Accordingly, the deductions of [amount] made since [date on which the deductions started] are unlawful and contrary to section 13 Employment Rights Act 1996.

- My salary remains at [salary] and I do not accept any reduction, retrospective or otherwise.

- Even if there was an overpayment, after this period of time - more than three years - you are now estopped from recovering it.

- As you are aware, as part of my role I am required to read the emails of [boss]. Please note that the outlook security setting of confidential still passes emails to delegatees such as myself. If you do not risk me inadvertently seeing emails I should not see, you will need to take appropriate measures (such as using the private setting on Outlook which is different to the confidential setting).

- I require reimbursement of all unlawful deductions from my salary by [date]. If this does not happen, unfortunately I will have no option but to bring proceedings in the Employment Tribunal. I hope it will not be necessary to take this step and am happy to discuss reaching an acceptable resolution with you.

 

I do not think it is worth saying too much about the redundancy stuff. Ultimately this is a decision only your employer can make. You cannot stop them from making a termination offer. Reacting with outrage only makes it more likely that they will want to terminate you. If you want to keep the job a better approach would be to say that you would like to keep working for the employer and that you have particular skills that none of the other secretaries have, but at the same time you cannot accept a retrospective reduction in your salary contrary to the pay letter prepared by the company.

 

As per my previous posts, I think you have to be a little bit careful about the pay reduction of March 2012. It will be very difficult for them to justify deductions for anything before that but I do think there is a risk you will be deemed to have accepted a reduction in salary from March. Do keep a careful eye on the time limits for bringing an Employment Tribunal claim mentioned on the first page.

Edited January 31, 2013 by steampowered

[Emmzzi]

Great letter steampowered. Clear calm and logical.

[steampowered]

Thanks, glad you like it

[Sugar Plum]

HI Steampowered

 

when I was writing the letter I was rather angry and upset. I couldnt hold back even though I knew I should. In the cold light of day and now that I have calmed down. I agree with your advice.

 

The reason I put in the quotes from solicitor is because if I have to take them to court I want there to be a reference to it as my boss will definately not make any reference to the discussion. He totally ignored everything I put in my previous letter with regards to his admission etc.

 

Thanks again always appreciated

[Sugar Plum]

They have no intention of resolving it, they just want me to shut up about it and accept it.

 

My boss said they have sent me a letter and the balls in my court on how I want to proceed.

[steampowered]

If they have sent you a letter, it might be a good idea to wait and see what it says.

[Sugar Plum]

Hi steampowered/All

 

In the letter they sent me yesterday the only thing say is that it has been explained to me how the overpayment error occured and it was not a deduction and I accepted it. Then they say they are not going to recoup any money but if I wanted to make an offer they would be prepared to discuss it.

 

Everything else has not been ignored they are not acknowledging any part of it. Which I take as they have no intention of returning my money or put my salary back to what it was.

 

Iv tried the tread softly with them previously but they are just taking the mick now.

[Emmzzi]

Lodge an ET1 then.

[Sugar Plum]

Just filling it in now:-)

[jackieandwayne]

Good luck Julesmo. X

[Sugar Plum]

:-)HI guys

 

Just had a thought does anyone know anything about on how to file a commercial lien in court against a employer?