Interview Under Caution for Carers Allowance Claim - Advice Please

[John200700]

Hello All

 

This is my first thread and hoping for some advise please.

 

My wife has been receiving carers allowance for our son for about six years now but she started work in January 2011 but we failed to notify the DWP. This is entirely my fault as I am the one who looks after the finances and should have realised we had to notify them.

 

We informed the DWP of the change of circumstances on Wednesday of this week and were given a local number to ring, the person we spoke to is a fraud investigator and advised her that a letter had already been sent this week to invite her to an IUC. We did not receive the letter until yesterday.

 

We know we have made a huge mistake and the overpayment is between £4000-£4500.

 

My wife's really upset and scared as to what might happen, she works in a school and loves her job and we have read that a criminal prosecution is possible, a conviction would result in her losing her job.

 

Can you give any advice in regards to the IUC,

Do we need a solicitor?

Can I attend with her?

What would be the likely outcome?

What should she say or not say?

 

Many thanks in advance.

[estellyn]

You can get a solicitor, but given the fact that you admit the error, it probably is not necessary at this point. Yes you can attend with her, but she will have to answer the questions. What the outcome will be is hard to say, but in my experience, being completely truthful, and very sorry can go a long way. She will obviously have the overpayment. A decision on more than that will take some time. Then there are options of them giving an administrative penalty (30% of the oevrpayment on top) and/or a caution, or going ahead with a prosecution. If they offer an adminitrative penalty or caution, then jump on it - as she admits guilt anyway, this will mean no prosecution.

[John200700]

You can get a solicitor, but given the fact that you admit the error, it probably is not necessary at this point. Yes you can attend with her, but she will have to answer the questions. What the outcome will be is hard to say, but in my experience, being completely truthful, and very sorry can go a long way. She will obviously have the overpayment. A decision on more than that will take some time. Then there are options of them giving an administrative penalty (30% of the oevrpayment on top) and/or a caution, or going ahead with a prosecution. If they offer an adminitrative penalty or caution, then jump on it - as she admits guilt anyway, this will mean no prosecution.

 

Thanks for the advice, I think an offer of a penalty or caution would be great, do you think they offer that at the interview? Also I've heard that the DWP normally always prosecute if the overpayment is over £2000, is that correct?

[Stan Lee]

Given that you may be part of the case, I am unsure if the fraud investigator will allow you to sit in the interview with your wife: you might want to phone them and ask.

 

If you are willing to admit that it was your fault, and your wife will corroborate, then I would hazard a guess that ultimately it will be you that they will want to speak to. However, they will want to establish a) the intent (i.e. was this an accident, or did you intend to defraud the state) and b) did your wife collude with you in failing to promptly inform the secretary of state about a change of circumstances. If she has signed her name, then that it why she is being interviewed first. During the interview, they will probably show her the paperwork that she signed, and ask her what she knew about her responsibility to report any changes of circumstances.

 

Thus, if I were the investigator, I would want to know why it took you twenty one months to inform them of a change of circumstances, and what prompted the disclosure last Wednesday. (I should note I am a layperson, but some helpful CFIS/ex-CFIS investigators do post on here, and if they don't reply to this thread, then you should maybe have a look around because they tend to have some very useful things to say.)

 

If you disclosed the change of circumstances unprompted and completely of your own freewill, then this will count in your favour. As for prosecutions over £2000, what happens -- I believe -- is that they have to be forwarded to the prosecutors for consideration, but this does not mean that you will automatically get prosecuted. I know someone who used to work in (or very close to) this field, and they told me that people get very hung up about the £2000 threshold, but what the investigators really look for is intent: people are prosecuted for receiving £0 overpayment, if they were seriously 'at it'. Similarly, people are not prosecuted for bigger overpayments over the £2000 threshold. So it's possible that you will be prosecuted, but not necessarily probable at this early stage.

 

So take one step at a time. You need to be very clear on: why the overpayment occurred; what was the trigger that made you realise you were being overpaid and were not entitled to the money; what your wife knew about the situation and her legal responsibilities; why did it take you so long to realise that you should have informed the state about her new job.

 

Oh, it's just me, but I would probably seek legal advice from a solicitor experienced in social security law. I would email round all the solicitors in your area (using yell) specifically asking if they had any lawyers experienced in this area. Often the offer free half hour consultation, and may well have experience with the prosecutions in your area. They can also enquire as to the evidence held against you, and help you decide whether or not to attend the interview or provide a statement that you read out as opposed to subjecting yourself to interrogation. As Estellyn says, you are holding your hands up and admitting your mistake (I think) but I myself am paranoid and I would want to explore all my options. It can't hurt.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Stan Lee

[Stan Lee]

Oh, one thing you might want to check: I was under the impression that cautions were no longer being issued:

 

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/newsroom/press-releases/2012/may-2012/dwp045-12.shtml

[estellyn]

Thanks for the advice, I think an offer of a penalty or caution would be great, do you think they offer that at the interview? Also I've heard that the DWP normally always prosecute if the overpayment is over £2000, is that correct?

 

No they don't offer anything at the interview, and its best not to mention it there. You need to be prepared that this whole process can take months and months.

 

I think £2000 is a guide, but there are people with higher overpayments who don't get prosecuted.

[estellyn]

Oh, one thing you might want to check: I was under the impression that cautions were no longer being issued:

 

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/newsroom/press-releases/2012/may-2012/dwp045-12.shtml

 

Thanks, did not know cautions had been taken away.

[jabba jones]

Thanks, did not know cautions had been taken away.

 

From the guidance I've read it's only if all of the offence has taken place since April 2012, so in this case as the work started in Jan 2011 a caution is still possible, but doubtful if the o/p is more than £2000.

 

I also agree with Stan Lee that if the husband attends the IUC & takes the blame the investigator may suspend the interview & ask him to leave as he might have to be invited for a seperate IUC at a later date.

Edited October 5, 2012 by jabba jones

[John200700]

Thanks for all your advice.

 

Any prosecution may result in my wife losing her job and therefore hindering any repayment, do you think they would take that into consideration?

 

Hoping to get a call back from a local solicitors who have agreed to help and attend the interview.

[greensaab]

My advice and i will be shouted down. Is not to go to the interview.!"!!!!!!. if you do go make sure you take a solicitor who is CLUED UP. You are not breaking the law if you refuse to go but if you do say nothing.

that has been my misatake. in 2010 i recieved a letter asking me to go for an IUC. same as your wife i have a disabled son and work as a TA in a school. Off i went as happy as larry!!. Wow was i mistaken. interview was great, guys really jovial and kind, sympahised with me etc. i admitted to being stupid and not knowing carers allowance was linked to earnings, said how silly i was not to have read letters properly. they laughed and agreed. i discovered how much i owed a stagering £20,000 i was gobbed smacked but have being paid it back. well thats it i thought but no i was wrong i recieved a letter from DWP telling me that they were prosecuting me for "dishonestly failed to give aprompt notification....contary to section111a (1a) .... i wrote numerous letters to every one even to david cameron in the hope someone would see sense but no. so to cut a long story short i am in court tomorrow for benefit fraud. i have no legal representative as i do not qualify for legal aid. my husbands hours at work have been cut do we can just about afford to live, everything is up to the max so i cannot afford a solicitor. my son has been ill all week so i'm going to have to take him,and to top it all i have the period from hell. Some times i wonder if there is a god . Any way here goes for tomorrow my life cant gate any worse. and please dont ask me how i have to bath my Son. disabled facility grants Well thats another matter. Some one pass the GIN BOTTLE. please !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[greensaab]

£20,000,

 

I only a TA and my husband an Engineer. we only earn 30,000 a year between us, dont own our own house. I paying it back at £80.00 a month and this is a struggle. we are so far in debt and not for luxury items either. sam, our disabled son is doubly inconitnent, his feeding tube leakes frequently. my fuel bills are astranomical as i'm always washing. he needs a new matress every 3 months and quilts and sheets and clothes. the list is endless. but i would not be with out him. i dont have a bathroom big enough to bath him in so i sponge bath him every day and at weekends take him to local sports center for a shower. no body told us that DFG for children were not means tested so we never applied till this year when now we have a ramp to get him into the house and application has been made to get a downstairs washroom. Apparently i am entiled to direct payments for help. nobody told me !!!!

 

What really gets to me is that they are really good at taking things off you that you are not allowed BUT DONT TELLL YOU WHAT YOU ARE !!!!!!!!

 

Even though davis cameron had a disabled son, I can guarantee his life was nothing like mine.!!!!!!!!

[hine moa]

£20,000,

 

I only a TA and my husband an Engineer. we only earn 30,000 a year between us, dont own our own house. I paying it back at £80.00 a month and this is a struggle. we are so far in debt and not for luxury items either. sam, our disabled son is doubly inconitnent, his feeding tube leakes frequently. my fuel bills are astranomical as i'm always washing. he needs a new matress every 3 months and quilts and sheets and clothes. the list is endless. but i would not be with out him. i dont have a bathroom big enough to bath him in so i sponge bath him every day and at weekends take him to local sports center for a shower. no body told us that DFG for children were not means tested so we never applied till this year when now we have a ramp to get him into the house and application has been made to get a downstairs washroom. Apparently i am entiled to direct payments for help. nobody told me !!!!

 

What really gets to me is that they are really good at taking things off you that you are not allowed BUT DONT TELLL YOU WHAT YOU ARE !!!!!!!!

 

Even though davis cameron had a disabled son, I can guarantee his life was nothing like mine.!!!!!!!!

 

Write down the amount of care your son takes and what you've said here, take it with you tomorrow. I think there are duty solicitors at court?? I'm not at all sure about that though. But if there are hand all your notes over, if you write it down tonight it's all there for tomorrow without you trying to tell them everything in an emotional state tomorrow. Get to court early to prepare. Can you take someone with you for support?

Sadly, they are making examples of benefit fraud cases, pity they are picking out people who generally just got in a mess rather than more of the ones that are deliberately milking the system. I think there is a threshold amount for who they take to court too, no questions asked if you go over that limit then you're in court.

I went to court a couple of weeks ago for a £8250 overpayment, I pleaded guilty, I didn't do it knowingly but yes I could see that I should have given details of student loans and therefore I had received money when I shouldn't have. My circumstances were put forward and I was very lucky to get a 2 year conditional discharge.

Take your son with you, let the magistrates see what you have to deal with every day, they're human and hopefully they will be lenient once you explain how your life is.

Good luck will be thinking of you xx

[Nystagmite]

my fuel bills are astranomical as i'm always washing. he needs a new matress every 3 months and quilts and sheets and clothes. the list is endless

 

I think there are schemes (non-income assessed) if you or your child have a disability and you use a lot of water due to being disabled.

[greensaab]

Writing this while waiting Hospital transport to take me back to hospital

 

On the way to court yesterday morning i sufferred severee bleeding from the lower area and i mean severe bleding. i was taken immediatedly to A & E put on a drip and given drugs to slow/stop bleeding.

 

Due to my sons condition and i am his prime carer are was alowed to return home late last night under the provision i supervised and did not move.

 

My husband rang the court office and told them i was in A&E. He rang later to find out when it was ajourned to to discover a warrent has been issued for my arrest, apparrelt the message never got to court. So here i am awaiting an ambulance and a possible operation and have a warrent out for my arrest.

 

Should have robbed a bank

[hine moa]

Writing this while waiting Hospital transport to take me back to hospital

 

On the way to court yesterday morning i sufferred severee bleeding from the lower area and i mean severe bleding. i was taken immediatedly to A & E put on a drip and given drugs to slow/stop bleeding.

 

Due to my sons condition and i am his prime carer are was alowed to return home late last night under the provision i supervised and did not move.

 

My husband rang the court office and told them i was in A&E. He rang later to find out when it was ajourned to to discover a warrent has been issued for my arrest, apparrelt the message never got to court. So here i am awaiting an ambulance and a possible operation and have a warrent out for my arrest.

 

Should have robbed a bank

 

Oh my word!! You need to make sure you get evidence you were in A and E, I bet the court will insist on it. Hopefully they have stood down the warrant. Take it easy and get yourself better, make sure you get a doctors letter explaining what happened, was this brought on by all the stress? Would be good if the doctor could spell that out in the letter too.

 

I hope you are better soon, thinking of you xx

[Nystagmite]

That is shocking! I do hope you're better soon.