I have a friend who has an ESA tribunal soon, help

[Carvel]

Hello

 

I have a friend who on ESA for a severe alcohol problem and mental health issues.

 

He needs help with a Submission Document for the tribunal. He visited Citizens Advise who was not much help.

 

He needs help in getting a good submission document together and help with his esa85 form plus what additional evidence is needed to support for the tribunal.

 

He has being on here before but he upset some folk which he is sorry about. I am concerned about his wellbeing at the moment as this tribunal is looming.

 

Any advice would be most welcome

[debt4get]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?251737-Appealing-or-going-to-a-Tribunal-Some-useful-information%282-Viewing%29-nbsp

have a look at this sticky lots of info on how to prepare for a tribunal

[Carvel]

thanks ill have a look at that link.

[Carvel]

Hi

 

I have looked at his esa85 form. I see descriptors 6, 13, 14, 15 and 16 as being None Of The Above Apply. Talking to him I think they may. Also inaccurate areas. Is there anyone on here that can help discredit those desciptors to his advantage unique to his illnesses? He was formerly a hostel resident and has being involved with a Alcohol Worker on the Work Program.

[Carvel]

If anyone can help me help him through his esa85 and best strategies to walk through, his tribunal is a month away.

 

thank u

[debt4get]

the trouble with this is unless you post accurate confidential information (which will not be encouraged on here) it is going to be difficult for anyone to comment on what you should be putting in the descriptors, the only thing i can suggest is you read them carefully then show how he can fit the descriptors with his conditions and how he should score the points against those particular descriptors....

[Nystagmite]

You need to write it something like descriptor, why he meets the criteria and what happens if he tries (or what happened last time he tried) to carry out the descriptor.

[estellyn]

Generally, the first part of the submission should be what the ATOS assessor said was incorrect. If you look at the beginning of the ESA85, there should be a list of comments about your friend like 'watches tv, likes soaps', or 'does his own shopping' etc, this is where you start to pick out what the assessor said that was wrong or was put out of context. In this part you can also comment on the fact that assessor failed to make sufficient enquiries as to ascertain your friend's abilities for x (any descriptors in question).

 

The second part is as nystagmite says. Write the descriptor that your friend thinks is most appropriate and then write underneath why and give examples of things from his everyday life that show why. In this section reference any supporting evidence that is being supplied in support of the descriptor. do that for every descriptor your friend thinks he should score points on.

 

If you're unsure, post something with any identifiers removed and we'll look and tell you if you're on the right track.

[Carvel]

Hello Estellyn and Nystagmite

 

The first part of the submission I think is the easier part to deal with. For example it is stated "he can go to the supermarket". Yes this is correct. But... But he needs to be have drunk a high quantity of alcohol to manage his anxiety state self medication. This critical fact isn't mentioned anywhere in the within the esa85.

 

I found this

 

http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/3429/

 

The more I read the descriptors the more confused I get.

 

I don't want to mess this up for him.

 

Could you help me by asking me questions for me to ask him regarding these descriptors to ensure we are going in the right direction.

 

thank u

[Carvel]

Hello

 

I am slowly getting there I think.

 

The assessor didnt qualify these descriptors:

 

6b. Impossible for him sober

6c. Even when hes drank a large amount of alcohol.

 

14c. Impossible for him sober, made easier if alcohol is involved.

 

15a. Impossible for him sober.

15c Even when he has drank a large quantity of alcohol

 

16b. As 15a above

16c As 15c above.

 

None of have mentioned in the esa85. Poor qualification by the assessor?

 

Am I going in the right direction for him?

 

thank u

[Nystagmite]

For each part, he can only score points. For example, for part 6, he can't score on b & c. He only score on b; as it's the first one.

 

You have to state why and give examples. What happens if he carries out the activity?

[Carvel]

Hi Nystagmite.

 

He hasn't done 6b for a considerable time. He avoids any form of personal contact, ever on the phone when sober. He just can't deal with it.

 

6c Makes it easier when he's drinking.

Although still difficult, he clams up a bit even when asking for asking for a packet of tobacco at the local market for example.

 

thank u

Edited September 29, 2012 by Carvel

[Nystagmite]

He then says 6b; as he can't do it.

[Carvel]

Nystagmite. Just edited my last post

[osdset]

Regulation 29 (b) can be argued

 

‘The claimant suffers from some specific disease or bodily or mental

disablement and, by reasons of such disease or disablement, there

would be a substantial risk to the mental or physical health of any

person if the claimant were found not to have limited capability for

work.’

[estellyn]

Regulation 29 (b) can be argued

 

‘The claimant suffers from some specific disease or bodily or mental

disablement and, by reasons of such disease or disablement, there

would be a substantial risk to the mental or physical health of any

person if the claimant were found not to have limited capability for

work.’

 

Yes, ie would have to be drunk in order to even attempt looking for work.

[Carvel]

Nystagmite

 

Also i have spotted in his ESA 85 in the introduction section that... He states he has a fear of everything... States he becomes anxious around people.

 

So why has these not being further qualified into those descriptors above by the assessor?

 

thank u

[Carvel]

Hi Estellyn and Osdset

 

Are you referring to

 

http://www.osscsc.gov.uk/Aspx/view.aspx?id=3514

 

How can this be used and applied in the Submission Document.

 

thank u

[Nystagmite]

Your friend needs evidence to meet that descriptor.

[osdset]

Hi Estellyn and Osdset

 

Are you referring to

 

http://www.osscsc.gov.uk/Aspx/view.aspx?id=3514

 

How can this be used and applied in the Submission Document.

 

thank u

Well for a start you can download a copy of the decision document using the link at the bottom, go through it and use any argument(s) that fit your case as a base for the submission. It's worth a read anyway because the appeal succeeded

[Carvel]

Nystigmite

 

I can only think of getting him evidence from his Doctor, a letter maybe? He also stayed in a hostel whereby staff were aware of how he was. A letter from them?

 

Can we please go through the remaining Descriptors please?

 

thank u

[Carvel]

Sorry Osdset

 

Which link at the bottom?

 

thank u

[osdset]

Sorry Osdset

 

Which link at the bottom?

 

thank u

 

 

Go to the link you posted for the decisions database and at the bottom left there is a section titled Decision(s) to download, on the right of that highlighted in blue is the link to the document.

[Carvel]

Yes Osdset

 

I already have downloaded that I haven't picked though it all yet but there are particular instances which are similar to his situations. Please read below what I have saw in this.

 

 

Not sure if this recent decision may

 

be useful.

 

In CE/1757/2011 the claimant

 

suffered from mental health

 

problems and alcohol abuse.

 

Judge Levenson agrees in principle

 

with the Secretary of State that

 

needing the use of alcohol to visit

 

new places or engage in social

 

contact can be compared with the

 

use of self-hypnosis or relaxation

 

techniques or anti-anxiety

 

medication.

 

However, he does state that it is

 

matter of degree -

 

“A small glass of beer or lager

 

before going out might be one

 

thing, half a bottle of vodka would

 

be something else.”

 

In the latter kind of case, Judge

 

Levenson holds that Regulation

 

29(2)(b) would be brought into play

 

-

 

“…the claimant suffers from some

 

specific disease or bodily or mental

 

disablement and, by reasons of

 

such disease or disablement there

 

would be a substantial risk to the

 

mental or physical health of any

 

person if the claimant were found

 

not to have limited capability for

 

work.”

 

Judge Levenson outlines that the

 

First Tier Tribunal considered this in

 

the context of the claimant’s

 

attempts at self-harm. In respect of

 

alcohol it stated that “the alcohol

 

problem would not be a risk

 

because on the evidence of the

 

appellant he can function with the

 

amount he consumes for example

 

before he goes out”.

 

However, in upholding the

 

claimant’s appeal and remitting it

 

fore rehearing Judge Levenson says

 

that -

 

“It seems to me that if a claimant

 

has to drink significant amounts of

 

alcohol before going out, even to

 

the pub, and 3 ½ cans of alcohol

 

before facing the First Tier Tribunal

 

then it is incumbent on the First

 

Tier Tribunal to consider whether

 

and how much alcohol he might

 

need to drink before going to work,

 

on the way to work, and while at

 

work, in order to actually work.

 

Significant amounts on a daily basis

 

might well pose a substantial risk to

 

his own health and also (depending

 

on the nature of the work) to the

 

health of others. The First Tier

 

Tribunal was in error in not giving

 

proper consideration to this issue.

 

The new panel must do this.”

 

 

Would I be allowed to use past case hearings within his Submission Document?

 

How is this best applied? This case seems to me to be a powerful arguement for my friend. This is his first tribunal. Is he at risk or would he upset the Judge?

 

thank u

[osdset]

Would I be allowed to use past case hearings within his Submission Document?

 

How is this best applied? This case seems to me to be a powerful arguement for my friend. This is his first tribunal. Is he at risk or would he upset the Judge?

I really can't advise you on whether you can use past case hearings I am no expert on tribunals, I agree that you could formulate a powerful argument if you study the downloaded case carefully and use the information to it's best advantage.

I won my tribunal without supporting medical evidence, I submitted a statement outlining how I thought I met certain descriptors and basically pulled apart the HCP's report, the judgement was based on that and my oral evidence.

How your friend reacts, and what he says will have an impact with the panel, so it's in his best interest if you can build the case with the submission and any medical evidence and then back this up with oral evidence on the day.