NatWest OD facility letters

[pj2017]

I have read some good threads here by Abby and others on OD facility letters. Do people know if banks would be likely to still have the original facility letter from an account opened in the 1980s? Presumably if they had it would be hard copy only - or could they just send you a copy of what they used for all their facility letters at the time, without any indication that it was the actual version you were sent back then?

 

Over such a space of time, how could I know if ALL the facility letters had been sent to me and they hadn't missed one out?

[robcag]

I have read some good threads here by Abby and others on OD facility letters. Do people know if banks would be likely to still have the original facility letter from an account opened in the 1980s? Presumably if they had it would be hard copy only - or could they just send you a copy of what they used for all their facility letters at the time, without any indication that it was the actual version you were sent back then?

 

Over such a space of time, how could I know if ALL the facility letters had been sent to me and they hadn't missed one out?

 

I would say judging by my own experience and reading comments by others on here that NatWest would be very unlikely to have retained copies of facility letters. It's even possible that they have no record of sending them out either. In my case, some considerable time after issuing their court claim, they finally admitted that they had not retained copies, but tried it on with the old 'the bank would have issued these as standard procedure' argument.

 

The best thing to do is DSAR them, asking specifically for copies of any/all facility letters which may have been issued, and also ask for a complete copy of the 'Diary Event History' for the account.

 

In case you haven't read my thread about beating NatWests claim (which also involved an attempt at Summary Judgment by them), it's here;

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?241052-Irwin-Mitchell-NastyWest-overdraft-claim-***-Won-With-Costs*** and the facility letters (or lack of!) was the basis of my defence, a link to which can be found at post #44 of the thread.

 

Good luck

Rob

[pj2017]

Thanks for a great reply. I'll try that!

[pj2017]

Is DSAR the same as SAR?

[pj2017]

Hi, I am wondering if I put an account number on the DSAR request, whether that will be seen as admitting a legal account exists? Clearly I don't recall every agreeing to the OD terms and conditions, or that the account could not be closed without a nil balance, or that interest rates could be hiked regularly without my say so - so I am disputing the terms and conditions, but I don't want to land in hot water, where they say "you've given an account number, so that means you recognize the account"???

[Bandit127]

A SAR is a Subject Access Request made under the Data Protection Act 1998. Some people and companies refer to this as a DSAR - Data Subject Access Request. They are exactly the same thing. In my opinion, HSBC (who insisted on calling it a DSAR) were making it posh sounding as the D bit is clearly implied by the information you are requesting and the law you are requesting it under. (Comments not aimed at RobCAG).

 

You should construct your SAR in a way that doesn't need account numbers. You are requesting the data held on you by an organisation. In effect you are asking A Company Ltd to supply all the data they hold on you. This is self contained. If they execute the request properly they will return everything they hold on you.

 

Don't use a SAR to insist on data they should provide under different legislation though. For example, some organisations don't send copies of agreements if they are obliged to provide them as requested under the Consumer Credit Act. I.e. a CCA request.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Bandit127

[Guest]

ironically, under a cca request they are only obliged to send a 'reconstruction' (they would prob send an actual copy if was to hand, otherwise a recon with poss an 'endeavor' to find the original), whereas under a data request an actual copy agreement (or the like eg application form) should be sent if it exists (if not already been sent of course) as it would be a document with someones name and address etc on it, ie identifiable. see the ico tech guidance for eg.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Ford

[pj2017]

Also, I've moved since the alleged account was set up - do I have to give all previous addresses too? Or would the bank have had to unify all records relating to me? So they would use my current address to identify my a/c no (the terms and conditions of which are unfair and I don't remember agreeing to), and then that would lead them into all records relating to all my previous addresses too?

[Guest]

yes, they should've updated their records re any new address notified. name stays the same, which they should use primarily and cross reference.

ps, can cite a/c numbers as reference if wish to do so. it would be of no real difference to them showing that you have had money from the bank! any dispute would relate to enforceability, and/or amount owed.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Ford

[pj2017]

yes, they should've updated their records re any new address notified. name stays the same, which they should use primarily and cross reference.

ps, can cite a/c numbers as reference if wish to do so. it would be of no real difference to them showing that you have had money from the bank! any dispute would relate to enforceability, and/or amount owed.

 

Ford, as you say, NatWest could easily show I have had money from the bank under that a/c no, and so the a/c number would not be the point in dispute. I would dispute: that I asked for an overdraft, that I asked for an overdraft of the size I was given (I think they gave me that limit - it's an odd limit), that I never agreed to terms and conditions saying they could vary interest rates unilaterally, that I never agreed to terms and conditions saying I couldn't close the account without a nil balance and they could carry on adding charges to an effectively dormant account, and finally the enforceability of a contract where the agreements and facility letters are not kept.

 

It is funny how direct debits bounce - if you don't have money in the account, they will not pay direct debits (although they will charge you £6 for a letter telling you the DD has bounced) - AND YET interest charges and fees charged by NatWest never bounce! Even if you have no money left in your account and no more agreed overdraft, they will still process their own fees as a debit - but surely, logically, their own debits should also bounce? I doubt anyone in the country was ever speciifically told on opening the account that it could never be closed, even if dormant, unless the balance was at least nil.

[robcag]

......... I would dispute: that I asked for an overdraft, that I asked for an overdraft of the size I was given (I think they gave me that limit - it's an odd limit), that I never agreed to terms and conditions saying they could vary interest rates unilaterally, that I never agreed to terms and conditions saying I couldn't close the account without a nil balance and they could carry on adding charges to an effectively dormant account, and finally the enforceability of a contract where the agreements and facility letters are not kept.

 

 

In my case I averred that I could not recall exactly how or when the overdraft came about, but that it must have been with the tacit agreement of the bank by allowing me to go overdrawn from time to time over a period of many years.

 

Rob

[Guest]

..and so the a/c number would not be the point in dispute........

 

thats what i meant so, in such circs, can cite any numbers for ease of reference but also ensuring that any request is not limited to just any given numbers ie request is for all data held.

the cc act itself provides eg's of o/d's becoming running credit and therefore subject to the cca. interestingly, the new rules (following EC) now require a cca agreement (no exemption) which would be subject to a cca request.

[pj2017]

While I wait for the SAR reply, in the meantime, I have been sent an income and expenditure form by the bank to fill in - I don't want to fill it in at all - although my income would show I cannot afford to pay anything - in case there are legal implications - how can I hold them off while waiting for the SAR reply?

 

My letter says: if the level of regular payment you offer is acceptable to us we will let you know. If this is not the case our Debt Recovery Department will make contact wiht you soon to discuss your repayment plan. We will continue to charge you any interest and or charges which apply to your account, so it is important that you complete this form etc.

 

The letter is from the Birmingham Collections Centre.

 

Basically I woudl like to rip the debit card up, send it to them, explain that the account is dormant and I deny the terms and conditions and will reply further once I get the SAR reply.

Edited September 14, 2012 by pj2

[Mike_hawk]

Use the Bishopsgate address for Natwest:

 

 

Registration Number: Z4936258

Date Registered: 06 October 2000 Registration Expires: 05 October 2012

 

Data Controller: NATIONAL WESTMINSTER BANK PLC

 

Address:

 

135 BISHOPSGATE

LONDON

EC2M 3UR

 

 

 

[Bandit127]

A creditor has no legal right to your I&E and you are fully entitled to refuse.

 

I would write a letter back enclosing the card (in 2 pieces) and re-iterating your request to hold interest and charges.

 

Ignore the I&E form unless you can find some nice words to decline it.

[pj2017]

If you put NatWest EH12 1HQ into Google, you will find the top Google reply ( I can't link as I don't have 10 posts) - says that an address in Edinburgh is the right one for people who have telephone banking set up. I have printed the SAR out to send to that address tomorrow. I think the Bishopsgate one is correct too - as that is regsitered with the DAta Commissioiner, but you will see that NatWest ont heir site specifically say the Edinburgh address is correct.

[Mike_hawk]

Your choice, all I can advise is that Bishopsgate is the correct address.

 

What Natwest say and what Natwest must do to comply with the act are 2 entirely different things

[Guest]

from natwest current a/c terms:

 

1.3.10 If you would like a copy of the information we hold

about you, please write to: The Chief Operating Office

SAR team, Ground Floor, RBS Gogarburn, PO Box 1000,

Edinburgh EH12 1HQ. A fee may be payable.

 

ps, whichever natwest/rbs address sent to, if not right one it should be forwarded to approp dept.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Ford

[Mike_hawk]

Tbh, you can serve a sar at any registered co address, just makes it easier to complain to the I.C.O when it fails to comply if you use the data controllers reg address. The above which Ford posted is the group addy, really just a means to an end for RBoS in cost reduction........ when it does fail try the following:

 

From: Tudor, Joyce \(Retail Compliance, UK Retail\)

0131 626 1669

 

From: Mackenzie, Margaret (Risk, UK Retail) [email protected]

0131 626 0734

 

When that fails give the thread a bump and I'll dig you out a few mobile numbers.

[pj2017]

As thjis account with NatWest is an account I am hardly ever putting money in, although I haven't exceeded the limit so far, every now and then putting in just enough to stop unauthorised overdraft - if I let it go into unauthorised borrowing, would it be better legally if I set up a standing order to pay £1 a month into it? Should I make regular token payments, and would that stop CCJs?

[Mike_hawk]

Simpler in the long run to negate the unauthorised [less to argue], the problem with RBoS group is that their current systems can't handle zero interest or charges. They can move it to the older back office os but they'd probably deny it exists.

 

Try e-mailing Gary to see if he's willing to intervene in the absence of Aileen

 

From: Stewart, Gary (RBS Secretariat)

[pj2017]

Mike, I don't know what you mean by "negating the unauthorised" - do you mean I could email Gary Stewart and ask him to freeze the account with no interest and charges and let me gradually make payments while remaining with my authorised OD? Thanks.

[Mike_hawk]

Yep

 

Give him a bell if you get stuck 07826 917362, I'm sure he'll soon work out how you got hold of his number.

[Guest]

do you have any loyds contacts who have authority?

[Mike_hawk]

do you have any loyds contacts who have authority?

 

If only, lol