CCTV PCN - is this valid without CCTV warnings?

[qwertyjjj]

So, Lambeth council again!

I received a PCN with an "alleged" contravention.

50R Performing a prohibited right turn (no right turn)

 

I looked at the CCTV footage and pictures and it's footage of a camera or CCTV operator who simply just points the camera at every car at the lights and zooms in and out quickly to catch the licence plate.

 

PCN here: 4 images: http://imageshack.us/g/545/pcn1edit.jpg/

 

The actual contravention occurred as I looked at the council website where you can see the footage and the CCTV operator zooms in on the traffic light after that has a no right turn sign.

My question was more around whether signage is needed for the CCTV camera use of this? The CCTV camera is installed on the street but I've never seen any mention of it. For example, with speed cameras, I believe the law requires a sign that states Police Enforcement cameras in use?

I can't believe a CCTV camera has been solely installed just for this use tbh to catch out motorists.

 

An example here states that government guidance says signage needs to be used and there might even be grounds for appeal based on the use of CCTV at all:

http://www.penaltychargenotice.co.uk/cctv-enforcement/

 

"the goal of enforcement should be "100% compliance without penalty". This means they should be a well-marked and parked conspicuously to discourage offences and not deployed in a manner which will maximise revenue by allowing offences to occur."

Doesn't aiming a CCTV camera at a junction zooming in and out quickly on every car to catch the licence plate count as revenue enhancing?

Edited May 12, 2012 by qwertyjjj

[green_and_mean]

The guidance you have stated is for parking contraventions its fairly obvious that cctv has to be used for moving traffic unless you expect a CEO to run after you down the street trying to stick a PCN on a moving vehicle?

The only revenue that is generated is that in penalty charges for those that ignore the 'no right turn' sign cars that go in the correct direction will obviously not get charged. There is no 'law' that states cctv or speed cameras require signage to warn motorists, many speed/cctv cameras are in fact mobile so signage is not going to be in place.

PATAS has stated on numerous occasions that cctv is now common place and it is an expectation that it could be used and the road signage (in your case 'no right turn') is there to warn you not to turn right, the added threat of cctv enforcement is not required the driver is expected to adhere to the road signs.

You may have some other grounds for appeal but trying to blame the Council for being 'sneaky' as an excuse for your poor driving or inattention to the restriction is not going to get you off.

[qwertyjjj]

The guidance you have stated is for parking contraventions its fairly obvious that cctv has to be used for moving traffic unless you expect a CEO to run after you down the street trying to stick a PCN on a moving vehicle?

The only revenue that is generated is that in penalty charges for those that ignore the 'no right turn' sign cars that go in the correct direction will obviously not get charged. There is no 'law' that states cctv or speed cameras require signage to warn motorists, many speed/cctv cameras are in fact mobile so signage is not going to be in place.

PATAS has stated on numerous occasions that cctv is now common place and it is an expectation that it could be used and the road signage (in your case 'no right turn') is there to warn you not to turn right, the added threat of cctv enforcement is not required the driver is expected to adhere to the road signs.

You may have some other grounds for appeal but trying to blame the Council for being 'sneaky' as an excuse for your poor driving or inattention to the restriction is not going to get you off.

 

Clause 8.79

states “ the primary objective of any camera enforcement system is to ensure the safe and efficient operation of the road network by deterring motorists from breaking road traffic restrictions and detecting those that do. To do this , the system needs to be well publicised and indicated with lawful traffic signs”.

 

Signs should:

 

• be clearly visible and readable;
  
• contain details of the organisation operating the system, the purpose for using CCTV and who to contact about the scheme (where these things are not obvious to those being monitored); and
  
• be an appropriate size depending on context, for example, whether they are viewed by pedestrians or car drivers."
  

[green_and_mean]

Clause 8.79

states “ the primary objective of any camera enforcement system is to ensure the safe and efficient operation of the road network by deterring motorists from breaking road traffic restrictions and detecting those that do. To do this , the system needs to be well publicised and indicated with lawful traffic signs”.

 

Wonderful you can quote that next time you get a parking ticket by CCTV however I thought you was after advice for your moving traffic offence??

[qwertyjjj]

Wonderful you can quote that next time you get a parking ticket by CCTV however I thought you was after advice for your moving traffic offence??

 

It's the same thing. CCTV must be indicated clearly regardless of what it's used for.

It cannot also be implemented solely to catch road contraventions, there must be other reasons.

 

I would like to check if the CCTV is certified as well but not sure how to.

 

Alternatively, what is the minimum amount of signage required for no right turns at junctions?

Edited May 13, 2012 by qwertyjjj

[sailor sam]

Why would signs be needed to show that CCTV enforcement was in place? It should be of no consequence if you obey the rules!

 

However, having viewed the location on street view, I can only see the small 'no right turn' signs on the traffic lights themselves so in my opinion, those alone are inadequate. Maybe ok if you are familiar with the area but to a stranger, I think they can be easily missed. I would of thought there should be advance signs as well so I would suggest forgetting about the lack of CCTV signs and appeal about the lack of advance no right turn signs as you were unfamiliar with the area. (I am assuming you are by the way).

 

 

Please Note

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[qwertyjjj]

Why would signs be needed to show that CCTV enforcement was in place?

Because they are, that's the law.

 

It should be of no consequence if you obey the rules!

Maybe you could have a camera inside your house to check you obey the rules all the time

Hang on, I just saw you use your hose pipe, that'll be £50 please.

[sailor sam]

Because they are, that's the law.

 

No it isn't. There is no 'law' saying that signs have to be displayed to enforce traffic violations. I thought G & M had already cleared that up. I think you are getting confused with public CCTV in pubs etc. In those circumstances they are required.

 

Maybe you could have a camera inside your house to check you obey the rules all the time

Hang on, I just saw you use your hose pipe, that'll be £50 please.

 

Ridiculous comparison. I'm beginning to think that you knew it was a 'no right turn' and are now looking for a loop hole.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[green_and_mean]

It's the same thing. CCTV must be indicated clearly regardless of what it's used for.

It cannot also be implemented solely to catch road contraventions, there must be other reasons.

 

I would like to check if the CCTV is certified as well but not sure how to.

 

Alternatively, what is the minimum amount of signage required for no right turns at junctions?

 

It probably is there for other reasons most cctv cameras used by Councils also double up as public space safety cameras to look for crimes and anti social behaviour.

 

CCTV doesn't need to be certified for moving traffic offences

 

The minimum signage is a sign telling you 'no right turn'

[qwertyjjj]

It probably is there for other reasons most cctv cameras used by Councils also double up as public space safety cameras to look for crimes and anti social behaviour.

 

CCTV doesn't need to be certified for moving traffic offences

 

The minimum signage is a sign telling you 'no right turn'

 

I thought there had to be 2 signs, 1 with "No right turn ahead", and then another on the traffic light with the no right turn symbol?

 

I find it bizarre that there is no guidance nor certification for this yet it can be used to issue PCNs.

[Nick H.]

So how did this work out? I have a similar case in lovely Lambeth.

[Jamberson]

Start a new thread Nick. This is two years old. Just give an outline of what happened and where you are at.