Seriously vulnerable family bullied for over 5hrs by bailiffs

[Annette1973]

Have you noted the NB I added to the post. In your earlier posts, I became confused by the ownership of the car. If it is your daughters and she in the main driver, the policy should be in her name. If you have tried to get around a high premium by putting it in your name, this is known as fronting (it is illegal). If this is the case, this may be the reason that R&R have reported the claim, even though their vehicle was not damaged.

 

Hi there, I am named as the main driver and we have separate insurance for my daughter from a company that specialises in Learner Drivers. I am unaware if any of this could be considered as illegal as obviously I did check before going ahead, maybe I should look into this a bit more, thanks. Also, I should add that there was no damage to the bailiffs vehicle so I can't really understand what exactly they are claiming for.

[old bill]

I think it refers to several threads on here where it was inferred that someone initiating a Form 4 could be landed with legal costs. and costs of the bailiff appearing as some courts were treating it as litigation, rather than the inquiry into a bailiffs fitness to hold a certificate it really is

 

This one from Fork-it post # 12 last year from this thread:http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?311115-Help-please-bristow-sutor-questioned-my-14-yr-old-to-find-out-what-vehicle-was-mine-when-i-wasnt-in-the-home

 

"Further information. I have looked at the allegations of multi-thousand pound costs orders being made against complainants in a Form 4 hearing.

 

These are rumours and their sources all come from within the

bailiff

industry.

 

There are no complainants that have a

costs order made against them, let alone one for thousands of pounds. They would have to be means tested before such an award could be made and an opportunity to defend it. Court rules prevent them being made in a persons absence unless the case is ex-parte (which Form 4 is not).

 

I looked at two

Form 4 complaints filed at Shoreditch

county court

which were

dismissed

as "frivolous and vexatious". One was against a

bailiff

who stubbed a cigarette on a footpath outside the debtors property. The other for parking a van accross a cummunal driveway. None involved any orders for costs.

 

It is more likely the bailiff industry trying to discourage debtors from making complaints. These are very damaging to

bailiffs

regardless of the outcome and can result in the bailiff bond being charged to pay the debtor compensation at the courts discretion. The court cannot award costs for either the complainant or the defendant in a Form 4 complaint hearing.

"

 

Thank you for clarifying that, Brassnecked. Another example of the bailiff industry trying to prevent scrutiny of those who work in it and allow those who should not be allowed to work as bailiffs to terrorise debtors.

[Annette1973]

This is the usual behaviour of those who know they are in the wrong. I've seen it and been on the receiving end of it. The fact you have independent witnesses goes in your favour. Did Ross & Roberts report you to their insurers or the police? Either way, they are in serious trouble. If anyone had been struck by the van, Dawson would, in all probability, be facing a charge of ABH or, possibly, GBH, depending on the nature and severity of any injury. Whatever happens, Selwood and Dawson are probably going to swing for their actions.

 

I must admit OB that this has taken the wind out of my sails, which, I suppose was their intention. My husband said that they threatened to have my medication checked etc.... and try to make out that I was not fit to drive blah,blah,blah.... However none of my medication, nor my health issues affects my driving abilities, I have checked this with my Dr on numerous occasions. I know that they are just clutching at straws, it is very upsetting though and they will come off worse for it as I am now even more determined to file a form 4 complaint against them and their boss.

[Annette1973]

I am wondering if I should tell RR that I was prepared to go through their own complaints procedure, however, due to their attempt to defraud my insurance company, I am just going to go ahead and file a Form 4? Let me know what you all think.

[unclebulgaria67]

Hi there, I am named as the main driver and we have separate insurance for my daughter from a company that specialises in Learner Drivers. I am unaware if any of this could be considered as illegal as obviously I did check before going ahead, maybe I should look into this a bit more, thanks. Also, I should add that there was no damage to the bailiffs vehicle so I can't really understand what exactly they are claiming for.

 

As long as your Insurers were aware that your daughter is the registered keeper and owner, then there is no problem with the Insurance being in your name, as the main driver. Some companies allow this and some don't.

 

In regard to why they would report the claim. First they have to do this, as it is a condition of Insurance to report all accident or possible claimable incidents. Second, they might want to avoid them being looked on as being at fault, so they told their Insurers of their side of the story, which has been passed onto your own Insurers. Third, they may have thought that you were fronting for your daughter to get around the problem of expensive Insurance for youngsters. You have explained that you have not done this and your daughter has separate learners Insurance.

[old bill]

I must admit OB that this has taken the wind out of my sails, which, I suppose was their intention. My husband said that they threatened to have my medication checked etc.... and try to make out that I was not fit to drive blah,blah,blah.... However none of my medication, nor my health issues affects my driving abilities, I have checked this with my Dr on numerous occasions. I know that they are just clutching at straws, it is very upsetting though and they will come off worse for it as I am now even more determined to file a form 4 complaint against them and their boss.

 

First and foremost, bailiffs have no power whatsoever to have your medication checked. If there were any issues with regard to your illness or medication affecting your ability to drive a motor vehicle, your doctors and also yourself are under a legal duty to inform the Driver Medical Branch at DVLA. If you have been advised by your doctors and DVLA it is okay for you to drive, stop worrying. As you say, Ross & Roberts are clutching at straws. In fact, they are panicking because they know themselves they have allowed two of their employees to behave in an illegal manner and the bar is going to come down on them whether they like it or not.

 

With regard to the Form 4 procedures, you can complete a Form 4 against [EDIT] as she is a certificated bailiff. As far as [EDIT] is concerned, I would be inclined to let the police deal with this. It is a criminal offence to act as a bailiff when not authorised by a court to do so. I would also be inclined to seek an ex parte injunction against Ross & Roberts under Section 3, Protection from Harassment Act 1997. There is case law on harassment of individuals by companies in the form of Ferguson -v- British Gas Trading 2009, which means that companies can be proceeded against for harassment of individuals. In the Ferguson case, BG were slated by the judge hearing the case. Once you have the interim injunction, follow it up quickly with an application to a Circuit Judge to make it permanent.

Edited March 28, 2012 by seanamarts
removed names

[Annette1973]

Thank you Uncle B and OB, you have put my mind at rest regarding the car incident. Unfortunately OB, I think that you are right, I will have to apply for an injunction on RR as they are obviously prepared to stop at nothing to prevent me and my family complaining against them. They are attempting to discredit anything we say and so I believe that I shall cut off contact with them now and deal with it through the council, the police and the courts instead.

[hallowitch]

threads by tomtubby about form 4 complaints

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?249037-Form-4-Complaints-and-Costs....Debate-in-the-House-of-Lords.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?241130-Form-4-Complaints-and-the-serious-matter-of-the-Judge-awarding-costs-to-THE-BAILIFF!!!!

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?333670-Form-4-Complaints-and-updated-guidance-from-HMCS-regarding-potential-COSTS-against-the-claimant-!!!!

[old bill]

I will look on my laptop and see if I have a sample Order under Section 3, Protection from Harassment Act 1997 that could be used as a template for the application to court. I would strongly advise the application is broadened to include Ross & Roberts "parent", Capita PLC, and its subsidiaries, including Equita. You could also include all Capita PLC employees, which would stop any Capita employees in LA Revenue Departments instructing other bailiff firms outside Capita PLC, and anyone acting for or on behalf of Capita PLC and its subsidiaries to counsel or procure others to engage in any course of conduct amounting to harassment. That is the beauty of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

[caledfwlch]

Thank you Uncle B and OB, you have put my mind at rest regarding the car incident. Unfortunately OB, I think that you are right, I will have to apply for an injunction on RR as they are obviously prepared to stop at nothing to prevent me and my family complaining against them. They are attempting to discredit anything we say and so I believe that I shall cut off contact with them now and deal with it through the council, the police and the courts instead.

 

Do you have footage of them crashing into your daughters car?

 

Are they aware yet they a lot of this was filmed?

 

And is the Sergeant going to back you up, that they lied to her regarding their powers?

 

I think you should also make another police complaint, re criminal damage, as this attack on your car was not an accident it was an intentional attempt to ram and intimidate you.

[Annette1973]

I will look on my laptop and see if I have a sample Order under Section 3, Protection from Harassment Act 1997 that could be used as a template for the application to court. I would strongly advise the application is broadened to include Ross & Roberts "parent", Capita PLC, and its subsidiaries, including Equita. You could also include all Capita PLC employees, which would stop any Capita employees in LA Revenue Departments instructing other bailiff firms outside Capita PLC, and anyone acting for or on behalf of Capita PLC and its subsidiaries to counsel or procure others to engage in any course of conduct amounting to harassment. That is the beauty of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

 

Thanks OB, that sounds exactly what I need. It is starting to seem that they really will stop at nothing to prevent us continuing with our complaint, they obviously don't realise the strength I am getting from having the Caggers help and support. I think it may be time to play a bit of Resident Evil (I am a total video game and zombie addict, I even have glow in the dark zombie figures on my bedside table) and workout some of my frustrations.

[old bill]

Sorry, thought I had a sample Order, but have found I don't have one. I'll see if I can find a template of one elsewhere.

[Annette1973]

Do you have footage of them crashing into your daughters car?

 

Are they aware yet they a lot of this was filmed?

 

And is the Sergeant going to back you up, that they lied to her regarding their powers?

 

I think you should also make another police complaint, re criminal damage, as this attack on your car was not an accident it was an intentional attempt to ram and intimidate you.

 

Thanks, I will definitely do that. Unfortunately the 'accident' was not filmed as it happened at night in the pitch dark, however our witness did take a photo of their van to illustrate that they sustained no damage, just in case they tried it on, as they have. I just cannot believe what lengths they are going to to stop us from getting justice. Do you know I had to do a total sweep of my home network today because I could not access the CAG Forums. Every other website, fine, emails, fine. As a holder of an IT Diploma I can say that it is very easy to restrict someones access to one site, a lot of schools and colleges have been restricting students access to Facebook for years now. After today's events, I do not believe I am being paranoid, extra vigilance will not hurt.

[brassnecked]

Thanks OB, that sounds exactly what I need. It is starting to seem that they really will stop at nothing to prevent us continuing with our complaint, they obviously don't realise the strength I am getting from having the Caggers help and support. I think it may be time to play a bit of Resident Evil (I am a total video game and zombie addict, I even have glow in the dark zombie figures on my bedside table) and workout some of my frustrations.

 

Make sure you post a brief synopsis on the MOJ consultation sub forum under this heading, as if your case isn't proof of need for an independent Regulator, nothing is

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?338851-Discussions-regarding-a-Regulatory-Body-Complaints-procedure

 

I think Ross 'n Robbers are afraid, very afraid, and I think there is merit in old bill's suggestion to include the parent company Capita, and the other bailiff subsidiary, Equita in the Section 4 Harrassment Order.

But a note of caution, bearing in mind tomtubby's thread, You should exhaust Ross 'n Robbers complaints procedure before embarking on a Form 4 see here:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?241130-Form-4-Complaints-and-the-serious-matter-of-the-Judge-awarding-costs-to-THE-BAILIFF

[old bill]

Make sure you post a brief synopsis on the MOJ consultation sub forum under this heading, as if your case isn't proof of need for an independent Regulator, nothing is

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?338851-Discussions-regarding-a-Regulatory-Body-Complaints-procedure

 

I think Ross 'n Robbers are afraid, very afraid, and I think there is merit in old bill's suggestion to include the parent company Capita, and the other bailiff subsidiary, Equita in the Section 4 Harrassment Order.

But a note of caution, bearing in mind tomtubby's thread, You should exhaust Ross 'n Robbers complaints procedure before embarking on a Form 4 see here:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?241130-Form-4-Complaints-and-the-serious-matter-of-the-Judge-awarding-costs-to-THE-BAILIFF

 

Totally agree, Brassnecked. The more rope they have to hang themselves with, the better. Btw, orders are under Section 3, not Section 4, which deals with the offence of putting people in fear of violence.

[Annette1973]

OK guys, if you do not hear from me again this evening, it is because my husband has run me a bath and told me that I have to leave it for tonight because my Dr has been having a go about my blood pressure. I understand what they mean, however, it is my belief that once you give into your illnesses, you might as well just roll over and die. I am humouring them all just for tonight because they have been known to sneakily give me meds that send me to sleep if I am not being a good girl. My husband and I intend to apply for the injunction and follow up our complaints to the police first thing in the morning. We will refuse all contact with RR as they have made it quite clear that even though our case is on hold, they will continue attempting to prevent us from carrying out our complaints. We will deal with them through the police and courts instead now. Watch this space!

[brassnecked]

OK guys, if you do not hear from me again this evening, it is because my husband has run me a bath and told me that I have to leave it for tonight because my Dr has been having a go about my blood pressure. I understand what they mean, however, it is my belief that once you give into your illnesses, you might as well just roll over and die. I am humouring them all just for tonight because they have been known to sneakily give me meds that send me to sleep if I am not being a good girl. My husband and I intend to apply for the injunction and follow up our complaints to the police first thing in the morning. We will refuse all contact with RR as they have made it quite clear that even though our case is on hold, they will continue attempting to prevent us from carrying out our complaints. We will deal with them through the police and courts instead now. Watch this space!

We are here when you want us, have a good peaceful and restful night, try to chill, it does help to take time out

 

BN

[caledfwlch]

Thanks OB, that sounds exactly what I need. It is starting to seem that they really will stop at nothing to prevent us continuing with our complaint, they obviously don't realise the strength I am getting from having the Caggers help and support. I think it may be time to play a bit of Resident Evil (I am a total video game and zombie addict, I even have glow in the dark zombie figures on my bedside table) and workout some of my frustrations.

 

Major Zombie (esp Romero) and PC game nut here too (dont do consoles ) One of my games, Skyrim an in game command line interface type thing where you can use commands to edit your character and items, and the world around you - so I often rename unpleasant looking characters and monsters I am chasing to "Bailiff'" There's a very ugly Orc down in Markarth who I suspect is about to get renamed "Nicola Selwood"

 

Thanks, I will definitely do that. Unfortunately the 'accident' was not filmed as it happened at night in the pitch dark, however our witness did take a photo of their van to illustrate that they sustained no damage, just in case they tried it on, as they have. I just cannot believe what lengths they are going to to stop us from getting justice. Do you know I had to do a total sweep of my home network today because I could not access the CAG Forums. Every other website, fine, emails, fine. As a holder of an IT Diploma I can say that it is very easy to restrict someones access to one site, a lot of schools and colleges have been restricting students access to Facebook for years now. After today's events, I do not believe I am being paranoid, extra vigilance will not hurt.

 

I doubt this company actually has the skills or know how to block your access to anywhere, I have had a few issues with the site the last few days with it running a little slow, I think it was just a problem, rather than anyone blocking you.

 

IF you can find proof of them attempting to disrupt or access your PC, then the company is completely borked, I doubt they would exist by the time the criminal prosecutions and civil compensation cases were finished!

[brassnecked]

Major Zombie (esp Romero) and PC game nut here too (dont do consoles ) One of my games, Skyrim an in game command line interface type thing where you can use commands to edit your character and items, and the world around you - so I often rename unpleasant looking characters and monsters I am chasing to "Bailiff'" There's a very ugly Orc down in Markarth who I suspect is about to get renamed "Nicola Selwood"

 

 

 

I doubt this company actually has the skills or know how to block your access to anywhere, I have had a few issues with the site the last few days with it running a little slow, I think it was just a problem, rather than anyone blocking you.

 

IF you can find proof of them attempting to disrupt or access your PC, then the company is completely borked, I doubt they would exist by the time the criminal prosecutions and civil compensation cases were finished!

 

Yes site has been slow recently, but I don't think Crapita and Ross 'n Robbers could get an ISP to bork someones connection. As for games, deus Ex human revolution on PC if you like conspiracy theories, just completed it, and am going back to try it in pure stealth mode. i was sad enough to wait all those years in the hope Duke Nukem forever wouldn't be a dumbed down console farce.

[Annette1973]

I know I'm not supposed to be on my iPad in the bath but I couldn't help it and I felt the need to make a comment to my fellow gamers, BN and CF because it's nice to know that it may be odd for a 38 year old woman to be so obsessed with zombies, there are others out there. I would also like to add that, believe it or not, I got addicted to gaming because of my mother. She is 58 years ols and owns just about every console on the Market, she is a gaming freak. Every Christmas when my brothers or I got a new console, we would have to go without Christmas dinner as she was so busy gaming she forgot to turn the oven on. She took me on a cruise last year. The Dr said a holiday would be good for me but that I was not allowed to fly. We live in Southampton so the cruise was ideal. I barred her from bringing any of her handhelds with her so instead she got addicted to a game on her phone, we almost missed dinner one night, she needs serious help. A lot of people think it is because my stepdad is actually 2 years younger than me (36), however she has been like it forever. I promise this is my last post tonight. I am just about to settle down and watch TheThing. I was feeling so blue before I got in the bath, you have cheered me up, I'm ready to fight another day xxx

[1Loretta]

Please do not rely on the police being on your side, things change

[old bill]

I can't find a template Order under Section 3, Protection from Harassment Act 1997, but I have found the necessary process to go through in order to apply for one. I will attach this to a separate post.

[old bill]

Annette,

 

You will need to serve this on the MD of Ross & Roberts before you can apply to the Court for an injunction under Section 3, Protection from Harassment Act 1997. I'm attaching a template letter and PDF copy of the Act. You will need to send them a copy of Sections 1, 2, 3 and 7.

Notice Under PfHA1997.rtf

Protection from Harassment Act 1997.pdf

[old bill]

Annette,

 

This is the form you will need to complete if the Notice to Desist has no effect. I will post the procedure later today.

n16a_e0407.pdf

[seanamarts]

Can I just add, that before a Form 4 can go ahead, you must complete all complaints procedures first.

 

Filing a Form 4 without going through this process may end up costing you in the end.

 

What you have to remember is, is that you will be complaining to the Judge that issued the certificate in the first place. This dosnt sit well with some Judges.

 

You have to show that you have gone through the proper procedures of complaint. You need to show that you are not just complaining because you owed CT and being vexatious against the bailiff because he was a little stern with you.

 

There are levels of complaint that you need to go through.

 

Complaints to R&R complaints department > Complaints to the CEO of R&R.

Complaints to the revenues and benefits department & CEO of the council.

 

You have to exhaust all revenues with these complaints procedures before writing up the form 4.

 

You need to make sure all your 'T's are crossed and your 'I's are dotted.

 

You need to stay one step ahead of them, remember they know every trick in the book and for every discrepancy you have with them they will have a few good excuses or justifications that will fit the bill and keep them looking squeaky clean.

 

Sadly I have to say that I doubt very much that you will get far with any type of harassment order, what you have to remember is that they are acting agents for the council, working on getting money owed to them.

As for the police, you may find that they will go a little quiet on this and state that it is a civil matter and not to take matters further.

 

You can chuck laws and regulations at them and shout the from the roof tops, but it still will not matter.

Ive seen it happen on more that a few occasions. This is why the bailiffs get away with it so often.

 

Filing a form 4 is not easy, it is very stressful and the bailiff and the company will lie through their teeth and make it look very convincing. The council will not get involved.

 

Just be prepared OK, Im not trying to put you off, far from it, I will help you all I can on getting a form 4 sent off and dealt with.

 

On the other hand you may get a good Judge who cannot stand bullying bailiffs. I had a Judge who was on the ball, she knew that the bailiff was telling lies, but even so it took a year from start to finish and it was extremely stressful and wanted to give up on many occasions.

 

You need to get this right the first time, because you only get one shot at this.

 

I hope that helps