Benefit fraud - overpayment of carers allowance

[greensaab]

I am now being taken to court for benefit fraud for claiming carers alowance when not untitled to it. I have a severley disabled son and have been recieving carers allowance since he was 3 months old in 1997. In 2004 because he was at school and health was good I went back to work as a teaching assistant part time at our local school. In 2010 the Dept of work and Pensions compared national Insurance records against carers allowance and up poped my name. i was then interviewed under caution. When i was then informed that carers allowance was linked to earnings. they showed me two forms i had complted re change in circumstances both of these were before i started working in sept 2004. i have now found myself charged with a £20,000 debt and a possible criminal record. as soon as i found out i began to repay as much as i can. the last form i recieved requesting change of circumstances was aug 2004 and i did not start work till sept.in fact i had not even been offered the job til 2 days before. At the same time my son's diability allowance was raised to indefite which meant benefit would be paid without review as his case was so severe, at the same time i stopped recieving letters from carers allowance. I am due in court 11/01/2012 i want to plead not guilty but Why should i do. i have written to everyone. david cameron, iain Duncan smith, maria miller, even the prosecution lawyers themselves but to no avail. what realy gets me is that if i am found guilty i will lose my job and will not be able to repay. also i will have to claim benefits and my husband will have to stop work too as we will be unable to afford bills.

[greensaab]

I'm due in court 11/01/2012 accused of benefit fraud. i claimed carers allowance while I worked. I

never knew it was means tested. i am the mother of a seveley disabled son. i went back to work a). because money was needed and b). to save my sanity ( i would have drunk myself to death). had interview under caution last year and job center told me i had to go and i did not need a solicitor.

Being a rather big mouth blonde i also accused the investigators of breaking the law. They were smoking outside council office (front door). Also when in meeting room I also accused them of in dangering my health due to passive smoking, they stank!! also told them I could prosecute for breaking the law.

Big mistake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

 

Well you never would believe it they have recommended me for prosecution. Well that was a suprise !!

 

Anyway despite being my sons only carer paying back the overpayment It is still going to court. Why because I'm an easy Statistice.

 

Edited January 10, 2012 by greensaab

[jadeybags]

Greensaab, really sorry to hear that, & I mean it. Getting real fed up of hearing about people knowingly claiming what they shouldn't from tax credits, but not even having to attend IUC's let alone end up being prosecuted. Then there are people that are oblivious to claiming other benefits wrong, ending up in court.

Hope you come back & let us know how you get on. Good luck with it.

[ErikaPNP]

Hi Greensaab. I note you made a posting on someone else's thread - I've merged that post here so that all the information is on the one thread.

 

Do you have represenation for court tomorrow?

 

Are there any questions you would like us to help with?

[greensaab]

Hi, NoI do not have any representation for court tomorrow as i dont qualify for legal aid and I can't afford to pay a solicitor. i have tried to get the prosecution to drop the case but to no avail.

I'm not sleeping and i cant see away out of this. i'm refusing to plead guilty tommorow but i was told by a solicitor i contacted using the internet. Peter kandler & co . that doing so will make magistrate send it to crown court. this has been going on since summer 2010 and i am getting to the end of my tether. My sons health has taken a turn fot the worse and i just want to die.

[ErikaPNP]

How it works in court is as follows:

 

The DWP prosecutor will read out the charges, and you will be asked how you plead.

 

Guilty pleas: If you plead guilty, you will be given the opportunity to speak so that you can put forward any mitigation to the court. They will either sentence you there and then - which is usually how it is done, or they will defer sentence to a later date. Please do not be put of by the word 'sentence'. It simply means 'penalty'. It does not necesserily mean prison. It could be a fine or community service, for example.

 

Not guilty pleas: If you plead not guilty, no evidence will be presented there and then, as they will need to arrange a date for pre-trial review and the trial itself and there will be no outcome tomorrow. If you are pleading not guilty, it is very important that before the trial, you establish what evidence they intend to rely upon in their case against you. The burden of proof rests with the prosecution. This means that it is for them to prove that you committed fraud, not for you to prove that you did not - although it helps a great deal if you can poke holes in their evidence.

[greensaab]

they have all my payslips. also 2 forms i signed one dated 2001 and 1 dated aug 2004. Both are ,Are there any changes to circumstances ?. i signed as no change because i didnt know that there was an earning limit. so as far as i was concerned there were no changes so i just ticked and signed. it never occured me to read form. Anyway both these forms were signed before i started work. Aparently they were sent out every year but i never got them. My sons DLA is an indefinte payment which i do not have to renew every three years. All i remember getting is the occasional form saying allowance had increased. there is also a copy of a DWP form saying no forms signed and that was in 2005 but nothing else till letter requesting Interview under caution. incidentally the job center told me i ahd to attend. Even spoke to (edit) an investigator direct and he said i had to. incidentally he was the one who interviewed me and one of the ones I made a complaint about smoking. At the interview i agreed that all but one were deinitely my signature but i have stated all the way through that all i am is guilty of not reading forms. there was alos an over payment of allowance which apparently arose from a job i had as a teching assistant for a few weeks. which i had to give up because sam was unwell. i dont remember recieving any forms re this. What i cant understand is why in 2005 when they had not recieved any forms, didnt they suspend the allowance and write or telephone me. i am also at a loss as to what they feel they are gaining by prosecuting me and i would love to know how much this has cost.

Edited January 10, 2012 by ErikaPNP
name of individual removed

[jabba jones]

It's probably far too late now but I think you really need to get some advice from a solicitor with good benefit knowledge.

 

The DWP legal department are very strict picking case to go to court & will not take it this far unless they are confident of winning it.

 

On your original CA claim form you will have signed a declaration that states you will report all changes in your circumstances & that you understand failure to do this could result in action being taken against you.

 

Every Jan/Feb just prior to the April benefit increase you will have been sent an uprating letter. This not only tells you of the increase but lists or includes a leaflet of the rules for the benefit you are claiming. With CA this is on the actual letter itself and the part about employment is one of the first things on it.

 

Obviously I don't know what evidence they will be using against you but 1997 to 2010 is at least 13 occasions that you will have been informed of the rules in writing.

 

I am NOT advising you to plead guilty, only that you need urgent legal advice before you make your decision.

[ErikaPNP]

All i remember getting is the occasional form saying allowance had increased.

 

This is a problem. The annual uprating letters are automated and they all state that changes need to be declared - there is also a list of changes that should be declared. This would also be stated in your original award letter.

 

all i am is guilty of not reading forms.

 

I'm afraid that this won't assist in any mitigation. There is some responsibility placed upon you as the claimant to read the literature you are given which advises you of the requirement to declare changes. Unless there was some reason which meant you were unable to understand the information or seek assistance with understanding it (for example, if you had a severe mental impairment which affected your ability to understand or seek advice), this will not be accepted as a reasonable defence by a court.

 

incidentally the job center told me i ahd to attend. Even spoke to (edit) an investigator direct and he said i had to. incidentally he was the one who interviewed me and one of the ones I made a complaint about smoking.

 

I have removed the investigator's name. But this bit grabbed my attention. You do not have to attend an IUC. The letter should say that and they should not have said you had to attend. Complain about this.

 

Were you advised of your rights at the beginning of the interview? Such as the right to silence and the right to leave at any time? It may be that anything said during that interview is inadmissible as evidence if it was obtained against PACE principles.

[greensaab]

letter does not mention that you do not have to attend but it did enclosed a leaflet and referred to section on appropriate adults. they did say i had the right to remain silent etc and i could get legal advice but i replied i did not know what was going on yet, he did say that i could leave at any time. i didnt because i believe i am not guilty of deliberate benefit fraud and did not think this would go any further..also i filled in the forms in 1997 and due to my sons disabillites and the fact that he might not live i cannot remeber paying much attention. Also i was drinkinking rather heavily at the time and on anti depresents. The declaration on the application doesnt mention working and it is so long ago and during extreme conditions i cant remember award letter. i always believed that as long as i was caring for him and he recieved Higher rate DLA then carers was paid.

Edited January 10, 2012 by greensaab

[greensaab]

Also it was the two investigation officers that i said i would report for smoking that conducted the interview and recommended prosecution. Should this not count for something. as it was on public property and that is against the law. I would loose my job if i started smoking at where i work !!!!!!!

[greensaab]

where do i get this legal advice and such short notice. Also it was only 3 years ago that i stopped drinking and joined the real world again. They could have sent forms but wether i read them is another matter. and A fine or community serivice. This is laughable. i have no money and all my time is taken up caring for my son. Who i will have to take with me tomorrow as he had diaarhoea and cannot got to school. Fun Yes!!!!!!!!!! In this counrty we always target the weakest and the poorest. i wonder if our illustrious PM ever felt as low as i do now

[ErikaPNP]

The investigators smoking is irrelevant to your case I'm afraid, as they are two entirely seperate issues; it will have no bearing on your hearing. Even if you feel that your complaint about them led them to refer you, because it is not them who decide to prosecute. A DWP Prosecutor must apply the same two tests that the CPS (or COPFS in Scotland) does to determine if prosecution should go ahead; any disagreement you have with the investigators would not even be looked at by the prosecution unless they had a bearing on the ability to prosecute.

 

But you would be free to report them, in the same manner that you can report any other offence. Smoking on public property is not unlawful in itself; only in an enclosed area. You say they were smoking outside the council office. If by office, you mean they were smoking outside of the building on the street (even if this was just outside the door) then they are not breaking the law. If it was inside the building in a public area then yes, it is unlawful. This link to the law shows where smoking is unlawful.

 

I wish you very well for tomorrow. If you have any more questions, please do ask.

[greensaab]

how do i get legal advice tomorrow and can i have the case ajourned untill i do? . Also i'm going to have to take my son with me as he is ill. can i do this. I'm his carere and he cant go to school tomorrow?

[ErikaPNP]

You can ask to speak to the duty solicitor at court. It is unlikely (but not impossible) that the case will be adjourned on the day of the hearing as it is just a plea hearing. If you are pleading not guilty, it will be adjourned after your plea as pre-trial review will need to be set, as will a trial date. In exceptional circumstances, plea hearings can be adjourned, ask the duty solicitor whether this is possible in your case.

 

Children under 14 are not usually allowed in court unless they are babies. (Of course there are exceptions for child witnesses). There are no childcare facilities in courts. Perhaps your husband take the day off work to care for your son?

[jadeybags]

How did you get on Greensaab?

[greensaab]

I spoke to the duty solicitor, who at first said plead guilty but when He read the charge that said i had dishonestly claimed Carers and when i explained my self. He said i had no alternative but to plead not Guilty. which i have. So it has all been adjourned till march for trial. In the meantime i need to find a good solicitor but one that does not cost alot. I'm going to try and apply for legal aid but i feel that i'm just over the limit. So here we go again

[jadeybags]

Have you seen if you may qualify?

http://www.legalservices.gov.uk/civil/guidance/eligibility_calculator.asp

I think the duty solicitor is right though personally. Well done for standing your ground.

[Nystagmite]

You don't need to be on benefits to qualify.

[greensaab]

i know but there is an earnings limit and even though both my husband and i are not brilliantly paid we might be over. also they only take into account certain out goings like rent, council tax and utilities, they dont take into account car insurance ,life insurance ,credit cards debits,clothing,food,telephone bills, petrol to get to work, food etc

 

The worst thing is that it would be better for both my husband and i to give up work. we would actually probaly qualify for disability allowance, then we would get carers allowance,have all rent etc paid AND I would qualify for legal Aid. Also we could get a car on motability. Plus get all the adaptions we need to the house for our son.

 

Unbelievable isn't it !!!!

[Nystagmite]

Your last paragraph confuses me - I thought your son received DLA? It's not income based, neither is the motability scheme. I'm sure I read that for under 16s, the disabled facilities grant isn't means tested.

[ErikaPNP]

I'm very glad that you spoke to the duty solicitor and that you are going to seek representation for trial. Having representation can make all the difference in these cases.

[greensaab]

only problem is i wont qualify for legal aid and i cant afford a solicitor. i am now considering a change in plea to guilty even though i think i'm not ,because i cant afford any more fees etc. it's hard enough loosing allowance and having to pay it all back. Which i know i have too. because of my sons disabillities i cannot work full time and i am already working as many Hours as i can get. A trial will cost alot and i cant afford this. So i think i will change my plea and except whatever. i also cant take anymore stress and worry. i have a enlarged heart and a leaky valve and all this stress is not good. So i feel pleading guilty and getting it out of the way will be better. although it angers me to do so i can see no altenative. the longer i prolong this the more harm to my health and therefore my ability to care for my son and he must be my first priority.

[jadeybags]

Can you not represent yourself? Now that you have the case adjourned it seems a shame to plead guilty?

[greensaab]

Any ideas to what sort of sentence i would get. the overpayment is £20749. and it was paid from oct 2004 till june 2010. what really gets me is ,if as they claimed i was dishonest and knew ts that i wasnt entitled to it. Please tell me why i would then go and get a job with the local authority. surely cash in hand or a small back strreet shop would have been better.!!