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    • If anybody has any advice here, it would be greatly appreciated, I already suffer with pre-existing disabilities & have struggled with this so far. 
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    • Speaking of the reformatory boys, here they are with all of their supporters, some of whom traveled with them from miles away, all carefully crammed together and photographed to look like there were more than about 80 .. rather like Farages last rally with even fewer people crammed around what looked like an ice cream van or mobile tea bar ... Although a number in the crowd apparently thought they were at a vintage car rally as they appeared to be chanting 'crank-her'. A vintage Bentley must be out of view.   Is this all there is? Its less than the Tory candidate. - shut up and smile while they get a camera angle that looks better
    • in order for us to help you we require the following information:- Which Court have you received the claim from ? Canterbury Name of the Claimant ? Moneybarn No 1   How many defendant's  joint or self ? One Date of issue –  29/05/24 Acknowledged by 14/06/24  Defence by 29/06/24  Particulars of Claim PARTICULARS OF CLAIM 1.  By a Conditional Sale Agreement in writing made on 25th August 2022. Between the Claimant and Defendant, the Claimant let to the Defendant on Conditional Sale. A Ford Ranger 3.2 TDCi (200 P S) 4x4 Wildtrack Double Cab Pickup 3200cc (Sep.2015) Registration No, ******* Chassis number ***************** (“The Vehicle”).  A copy of the agreement is attached  2.  The price of the goods was £15,995.00. The Initial Rental was £8500.00.  The total charge for credit was £3575.;17 And the balance of £11,070.17 was payable by 59 equal consecutive monthly instalments of £187 63. payable on the 25th of each month. 3.  The following were expressed conditions of the set agreement, Clause 8: Our Right to End this Agreement  8.1   Subject to sending you the notice as required by law, any of the following events will entitle us to end this Agreement: 8.1.2  You fail to pay the advance payment (if any) or any of the payments as specified on the front page of this agreement or any other sum payable under this Agreement. 8.1.3 If any of the information you have given us before entering into this Agreement or during the term of this Agreement was false 8.1.4 We consider, acting reasonably, that the goods may be in jeopardy or that our rights in the goods may otherwise be prejudiced. 8.1.5 If you die 8.1.6 If a bankruptcy petition is presented against you; if you petition for your own bankruptcy, or make a live arrangement with your creditors or call a meeting of them. 8. 1.7 If in Scotland, you become insolvent or sequestration or a receiver, judicial factor or trustee to be appointed over any of your estate, or effects or suffer an arrestment, charge attachment or other diligence to be issued or levied on any of your estate or effects or suffer any exercise, or threatened exercise of landlords hype hypothec 8.1.8 If you are a partnership, you are dissolved 8.1.9 If the goods are destroyed, lost, stolen and/or treated by the insurer as a total loss in response to an insurance claim. 8.1.10 If we reasonably believe any payment made to us in respect of this Agreement is a proceed of crime. 8.1.11 If steps are taken by us to terminate any other agreement which you have entered into with us. Clause 9.  Effect of Us Terminating Agreement 9.1 If this Agreement terminates under clause 8 the following will apply 9.1.1 Subject to the rights given to you by law, you will no longer be entitled to possession of the goods and must return them to us to an address as we may reasonably specify, (removing or commencing the removal of any cherished plates) together with a V5 registration certificate, both sets of keys and a service record book. If you are unable or unwilling to return the goods to us then we shall collect the goods and we'll charge you in accordance with clause 10.3 9.1.2 We will be entitled to immediate payment from you for all payments and all other sums do under this agreement at the date of termination 9.1.3 We will sell the goods or public sale at the earliest opportunity once the goods are in a reasonable condition which includes a return of the items listed in clause 7.1.4 9.1.4 We will be entitled to immediate payment from you of the rest of the Total Amount Payable under this agreement less: ( a) A rebate for early settlement ias required by law which will be calculated and notified to you at the time of payment (b) The proceeds of sale of the goods (if any) after deduction of all costs associated with finding you and/or the goods, recovery, refurbishment and repair. Insurance, storage, sale, agents fees, cherished plate removal, replacement keys, costs associated with obtaining service history for the goods and in relation to obtaining a duplicate V5 registration certificate 4, The following are particulars required by Civil Procedure Rules. Rule 7.9 as set out in 7.1 and 7.2 of the associated Practice Direction entitled Hire Purchase Claims:- a)     The agreement is dated 25 August 2022. And is between Moneybarn No1 Limited  and xxxxxxxxx under agreement  number xxxxxx. b)    The claimant was one of the original parties to the agreement. c)    The agreement is regulated under the Consumer Credit Act 1974. d)    The goods claimed Ford Ranger 3.2 TDCi ( 200 PS) 4x4 Wildtrack Double Cab Pickup 3200 cc (Sep2015} Registration No ^^^^^^^ Chassis number ***************** e)     The total price of the goods £19570 f)     The paid up sum £1206 5 g)    The unpaid balance of the total price £7505 (to include charges) h)    A default notice was sent to the defendant on 20th February 2024 by First class post i)      The date when the right to demand delivery of the goods accrued 14 March 2024 j)      The amount if any claimed as an alternative to delivery of the goods 7505 22 include charges 5.  At the date of service of the notice the instalments were £562.89 in arrears. 6. By reason of the Termination of the Agreement by the notice, defendant became liable to pay the sum of £7502 7. The date of maturity the agreement is 24th August 2027. 8. Further or alternative by reasons of  the Defendant breaches of the agreement by failing to pay the said instalments, the Defendant evinced an intention no longer to be bound by the Agreement and repudiated it by the said Notice the claimant accepted that repudiation 9. By reason of such repudiation the claimant has suffered loss and damage. Total amount payable £19570 Less sum paid or in arrears by the date of repudiation £12064 97 Balance £7505 (to include charges.) ( The claimant will give credit if necessary for the value of the vehicle if recovered.)  The claimant therefore claims 1.    An order for delivery up of the vehicle 2.    The MoneyClaim to be adjourned generally with liberty to restore,  Upon restoration of the MoneyClaim following return or loss of the vehicle. the Claimant will ensure the pre action protocol for debt claims is followed. 3.    Pursuant to s 90 (1)  of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. An order that the Claimant and/or its agents may enter any premises in which the vehicle is situated in order to recover the vehicle should it not be returned by the Defendant 4.    further or alternatively damages 5.    costs Statement of truth The Claimant believes that the facts stated in these Particulars of Claim are true. The Claimant understands that the proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes or causes to be made a false statement in the document for verified by statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth. I am duly Authorised by the Claimant to sign these Particulars of Claim signed Dated 17th of April 2024  What is the total value of the claim? 7502   Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) ? No   Never heard of this   Have you changed your address since the time at which the debt referred to in the claim was allegedly incurred? No   Did you inform the claimant of your change of address? n/a Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account? No   When did you enter into the original agreement before or after April 2007 ? After  Do you recall how you entered into the agreement...On line /In branch/By post ? In a garage  Is the debt showing on your credit reference files (Experian/Equifax /Etc...) ? Yes  Has the claim been issued by the original creditor or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. Original Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? n/a   Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor? They said sent but nor received   Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Sums in Arrears”  or " Notice of Arrears "– at least once a year ? None seen   Why did you cease payments? Still Paying,   What was the date of your last payment? Yesterday  31st May 2024   Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved? No   Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor and make any attempt to enter into a debt management plan? Yes on 12 Feb 2024   What you need to do now.   Can't scan, will do via another means as you cant have jpg  
    • Now that is an interesting article which adds afew perspective that I hadn't thought significant - but on reflection of the perspectives offered ... Now Starmer is no Blair, however 'blairite he may be perceived, but the Tories aren't tories and aren't even remotely liberal   The fast 'unannounced and unexpected election call from sunack may well be explained by the opinion linked that he hoped reform would be unprepared and effectively call a chunk of Farages largely empty bluster - making him look even more of a prat, leave scope for attacks on shabby reform candidates and mimimise core vote losses to reform - while throwing the 'middle ground' (relative) tories TO THE DOGS - and with the added bonus of likely pacifying his missu' desire to jogg off to sunny cal tout suite somewhat   thumb in the air - I expect about 140ish tory seats, but can hope for under a hundred Reform - got to admit the outside possibility of 1, maybe 2 seats with about 8% of the vote - but unlikely. I think projections of over 10% of the vote for reform is nudged and paid for speculation - but possible with the expected massive drives from Russian, Chinese and far right social media bot and troll prods targeting the gullible.
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FCC taking me to court for SOMEONE ELSE'S failure to show validated Oyster


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Hi guys

 

This is a slightly complicated situation that's gotten out of hand. Please hear me out. :razz:

 

From my side, I topped up my registered Oyster, tapped in, then boarded a First Capital Connect train from Alexandra Palace to London Kings Cross. Ticket inspectors were on the train and I produced my validated Oyster card on demand. Now I'm being taken to court for 'failing to provide a valid ticket or validated Oyster card on demand' or some such nonsense. :|

 

Sounds suspicious, I know, but it's the truth. Here's how it happened...

 

In actual fact I was travelling with another person and that person did not have a sufficient funds on their Oyster card (an honest mistake, but that's irrelevant). When the ticket inspectors asked that person for a £20 on-the-spot fine, I offered to pay it myself - as a friendly gesture to the person who I was travelling with. Neither of us had £20 on us right there and then, but the inspector seemed like a sincere, cooperative guy. I gave my details to him, to send the bill / fine to. No bill ever came. Many months later I received a letter giving me an opportunity to provide a written statement (in which I wrote the full truth and suggested an out of court settlement). Next thing I know, *I'm* being summoned to court for an unpaid £3.40. But I'd have to lie to plead guilty, because *I* had a validated Oyster (my registered Oyster card). :???:

 

The problem I have now is that this all happened about 6 months ago. Does anyone know how I can get my Oyster records from that far back to use in court? I've called the Oyster helpline and I've been told the records only go back as far as 8 weeks. Does this mean I can't prove that I paid / tapped in? I'm afraid of looking like a liar in court, but I'm 100% innocent. :!:

 

I'd really appreciate some advice. The court date is in a matter of weeks and I have no evidence to back up my story.

 

A million "thank you"s in advance.

 

:wink:

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Please somebody help. I hope I haven't come across as rude, and I apologise sincerely if that's the case - I can assure you that I'll appreciate any advice / information, even if it's not what I wish to hear. I'm just at a loss. If I can prove that I paid / tapped, I hope I'm in the clear. As far as I'm aware, I didn't do anything illegal / immoral on that day - just tried to help a friend out. I've been through months of stress because of this, but I paid, I tapped, and I gave the inspectors my Oyster on demand. They know this. The allegations are false, based on lies. I just want a way to prove it.

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Hello there.

 

I don't think you come across as aggressive, don't worry about that. You've done the right thing by reposting and bringing your thread back to the top. I hope some of our industry guys will be along later to advise you.

 

My best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Hello, sorry, I thought I had replied when I first read this.

 

I suggest that you write to the prosecutor setting out the explanation that you gave here.

 

Ask for a clear photocopy of the inspector's original notes and statement indicating the evidence that you failed to pay your fare on that journey. Ask what action has been taken in respect of your travelling companion and whether or not he has paid his fare.

 

Request a reply within 7 working days and copy your letter to the Legal Advisor at the Court to which you have been summonsed.

 

Send your letter by recorded delivery as soon as possible and let us know what you get back.

Edited by Old-CodJA
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  • 3 weeks later...

...

 

I must give sincere thanks once again to honeybee13, Old-CodJA and SRPO for your help. My court date is 1 week away!

 

I've been sent the clear photocopy of the inspector's original notes. Here's what it says:

 

Witness: [the revenue officer's name]

Signed by revenue officer: [the revenue officer's signature]

[the date]

I was on duty carrying out my revenue protection duties on Finsbury Park Station

When I encountered a person now known to me as:

[my name, address, date of birth]

Reason for questioning/Description: Produced Oyster no [my travelling companion's Oyster number] failed to validate at Alexandra Palace 0.70p balance. [description of me, including ethnicity, build, hair style, height]

Cautioned at: 1453

Caution understood: Yes

 

I said "Do you have a valid ticket or authority to travel for your rail journey at this time?"

He said "I have Oyster"

I said "Where did you commence your rail journey today?"

He said "Alexandra Palace"

I said "Where are you travelling to by rail today?"

He said "Finsbury Park, then to Kings Cross"

I said "Do you have the means now to pay for your rail journey today?"

He said "No"

I said "Was it your intention to avoid your rail fare today?"

He said "No, I thought the Oyster had enough money on it"

 

Passenger Comments [empty]

 

Interview terminated at 1454

Fair avoided £03 40 paid £NIL

Outstanding £03 40

I believe this statement to be a true account of the facts

Signed by revenue officer [the revenue officer's signature]

Signed by passenger [my signature]

 

It makes no reference to my travelling companion. It has a technically inaccurate (and very offensive) description of my appearance and a mostly fabricated dialogue exchange, with my signature at the bottom! I didn't see those things on the day. He must have filled out this form after he'd obtained my signature. All I remember confirming was my name / address / date of birth, as I'd agreed to pay my travelling companion's fine. We weren't given an opportunity to pay the fair on the day. I might have had some loose change in my pocket, but when they asked us if we had £20 on us, we said we only had bank cards - that's when I offered for them to send the bill to my home address.

 

I honestly thought the revenue inspector was being cooperative, but now I'm not so sure. Was he stitching me up, or did he have good intentions that somehow got lost in the rigid process of the fining / prosecution system? He knew that wasn't my Oyster card. He specifically said to me (after I'd signed the form) that "When they write to you, you'll have to tell them that this was your Oyster, OK?" and I agreed, thinking nothing of it.

 

I've called the Oyster helpline and they're sending me a letter to confirm that I've requested a statement for that day even though they're unable to provide it (the data has apparently since been deleted). They're also sending a letter to confirm which Oyster card is registered in my name. Further, I called my bank who are sending me a statement for May 2011, which shows a payment to First Capital Connect for £10 on that day - the amount by which I topped up my actual Oyster card before embarking on that journey. It doesn't feel like a lot in my favour but I'm not sure what else to do. Should I be thinking about how to handle this in court?

 

Please any help / advice would be very much appreciated.

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Hello again.

 

I apologise if this sounds a bit off beam, but it's the sort of thing a lay magistrate might think of. Why did you suggest they wrote to you for the money and not your friend?

 

Have you done a historical print of your Oyster? I think it's something you can do yourself but I could be wrong. It can go back 8 weeks, would that cover this incident?

 

You would hope that once you have details of the Oyster card that's yours, you can show the argument doesn't stack up.

 

I expect the others will be along later with comments for you.

 

My best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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I agree with Space Cadet - I would hope that your friend would step up to the plate to corroborate your story. If you can show that your Oyster card was topped up prior to the journey, I would think that goes in your favour but more knowledgeable bods may have a different view.

"Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me". Martin Niemöller

 

"A vital ingredient of success is not knowing that what you're attempting can't be done. A person ignorant of the possibility of failure can be a half-brick in the path of the bicycle of history". - Terry Pratchett

 

If I've been helpful, please click my star. :oops:

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Where is your travel companion in all this? Are they willing to hold their hands up, or are they just going to let you face the music?

 

Thank you for your response. My companion has agreed to come to court with me, but when I originally put in my not guilty plea by post, I neglected to mention any witnesses that I'd be calling upon.

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I apologise if this sounds a bit off beam, but it's the sort of thing a lay magistrate might think of. Why did you suggest they wrote to you for the money and not your friend?

My friend is generally nervous and mistrusting of strangers and doesn't speak English as a first language. The situation was clearly having a terrifying effect and so I stepped in. I made the point to the inspector that my friend was travelling with me -purely- as a favour to me, to keep me company, and that I would have been the one paying the fare anyway had we realised the Oyster wasn't validated.

 

Have you done a historical print of your Oyster? I think it's something you can do yourself but I could be wrong. It can go back 8 weeks, would that cover this incident?

The incident was in May 2011, I didn't hear from FCC until around the time of the London riots (whenever that was), so I didn't know I'd have to defend myself in court until after the Oyster records had been deleted.

 

Thank you again!

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My friend WILL corroborate my story, but I can't show that my real Oyster card was topped up prior to the journey as the history has been deleted.

 

But you've got the bank statement showing a payment to First Capital Connect - that should help, I would have thought.

"Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me". Martin Niemöller

 

"A vital ingredient of success is not knowing that what you're attempting can't be done. A person ignorant of the possibility of failure can be a half-brick in the path of the bicycle of history". - Terry Pratchett

 

If I've been helpful, please click my star. :oops:

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Ah, I see where you're coming from now. I missed Old-Cod's reply further up the page when I first read this, and to be honest I'm not sure what else you can do except follow his advice.

"Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me". Martin Niemöller

 

"A vital ingredient of success is not knowing that what you're attempting can't be done. A person ignorant of the possibility of failure can be a half-brick in the path of the bicycle of history". - Terry Pratchett

 

If I've been helpful, please click my star. :oops:

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Firstly, the bank statement has no real significance. It is not a rail ticket and will not be accepted as being one.

 

When you initially wrote to FCC, why did you suggest an out of Court settlement if you did not believe that you were guilty of any offence?

 

Unless the prosecution agree that there were two people involved in this incident, you may have difficulty persuading the Court that your failure to mention a witness prior to the hearing date should be relevant. Having read through the witness statement that you have copied into your thread, this seems to suggest that you failed to show a valid ticket, did not have the means to pay your fare and did not produce a validated Oyster. This may also suggest that FCC allege you were using someone else's Oyster for your journey.

 

If you plead not guilty, as you should if your account is wholly accurate, the matter will be adjourned for a trial to take place at a later date.

 

You will need to ask the court to allow you to call your friend as a witness. Your friend will need to give evidence on oath and if English is not his first language the court can arrange for an interpreter. You and your friend need to be aware that this will mean you will both be subject to cross-examination by the prosecutor.

 

I strongly suggest that you urgently seek the advice of a Solicitor local to that Court who has experience of dealing with allegations of Rail Fare evasion. You might try an internet search for 'solicitor rail fare evasion help' but you need to act very quickly.

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But surely all that is needed is the Oyster card records for both people on that day ?. I find it hard to believe that all the data has been deleted, if so then surely it would put some doubt in the mind the court ?

 

You could ask that the Oyster data and possibly CCTV images be disclosed under disclosure rules, surely TfL or TOC's often bring prosocutions after the 8 week deletion date ?

 

Andy

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Thanks for your responses guys. I've tried the CCTV route - deleted within a month. Tried the Oyster records route - deleted within 2 months. The bank 'evidence' is not that useful.

 

When you initially wrote to FCC, why did you suggest an out of Court settlement if you did not believe that you were guilty of any offence?

Because I wanted minimum fuss. I thought they might accept the £20 fine + £3.40 and I'd be done with it. I knew I wasn't legally / technically guilty, but I agreed with my friend to pay the fine and didn't have a problem with that. They ignored my written request for an out of court settlement. When I phoned them they told me I'd have to offer hundreds to stand any chance of an out of court settlement. It was at that point I started thinking to myself "Well, hang on, I've been mislead and I haven't actually done anything wrong or committed an offence myself".

 

If you plead not guilty, as you should if your account is wholly accurate, the matter will be adjourned for a trial to take place at a later date.

My account IS wholly accurate and I've already submitted a not guilty plea by mail.

 

Your friend will need to give evidence on oath and if English is not his first language the court can arrange for an interpreter. You and your friend need to be aware that this will mean you will both be subject to cross-examination by the prosecutor.

I look forward to it! I don't want to sound silly, but I'm curious - is there some way I can request for lie detectors to be used? If the revenue inspector is honest, then there's no case. If he's not, then it's our word against his. My friend and I are both willing to take lie detector tests because we have absolutely nothing to hide. I don't suppose they're accurate enough to be able to make the verdict, but I'd like the judge to take the results from a test into consideration if possible. Forgive me if I'm being naive, I know next to nothing about the courts.

 

I strongly suggest that you urgently seek the advice of a Solicitor local to that Court who has experience of dealing with allegations of Rail Fare evasion. You might try an internet search for 'solicitor rail fare evasion help' but you need to act very quickly.

I've been trying and I'll continue to search. Originally I sought help from a solicitor and I was told I'd need to pay around a grand upfront, which I don't have spare. I just wondered why I should get myself into money troubles to defend myself against false allegations. Time is extra critical because I have an extremely demanding job and this whole situation has caused loss of sleep and ultimately slipping behind at work. But I'll continue my search in what little time I have.

 

THANK YOU again,Old-CodJA. I especially appreciate you taking the time to help me with such detailed insights. I owe you one!

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I'll be back to tell the story of what happened next. Hopefully it will be of help to other people in similar situations.

 

If the scenario is exactly as reported and your friend attends with you, speak to the prosecutor before the case is called into court and try to get a word with the 'duty solicitor' if you haven't already engaged one to represent you. If the rail company believe they have a strong case they will pursue it.

 

If all is as just your post suggests, my guess is they may well decide not to pursue the charge and it will be discontinued this morning.

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The scenario IS exactly as I reported it. Actually my friend didn't attend with me, yet the case was dismissed almost immediately by the magistrates.

 

Here's how the story goes from the point of my post in which I was desperately seeking last minute legal representation.

 

1- 5 days before the case, I went to see a solicitor, he told me that my story sounded too complicated and that I was better off avoiding court by offering an out of court settlement with no admission of guilt to FCC, thus reducing the likelihood of a criminal record. I'm not sure whether or not he believed my story, but I was utterly unimpressed with his level of professionalism and strongly disagreed with his opinion on how the matter should be dealt with. I refused to pay / sign his terms and conditions at the end of the consultation.

 

2- 3 days before the case I looked up the TfL Byelaws quoted in the charges against me and wrote a list of truthful objections to how the matter had been handled by FCC

 

3- I then scrutinised the evidence against me (the Witness Statement), which I believed had been completed after I signed it. I made a list of any inconsistencies on that form (there were many, many dubious points).

 

4- 2 days before the case I went to FCC, TfL and my bank and asked them all for any evidence they could provide to support my case. When told no, I asked for an official letter in writing acknowledging my request for the evidence and giving the reasons why I was denied.

 

5- 1 day before the case I spoke to my travelling companion (the one whose oyster card it really was). She wrote an email to FCC prosecution questioning their conduct and offering to pay the fare and/or fine. She also provided scanned in evidence and screen shots to prove that the oyster belongs to her and that she regularly tops up before travelling (bank statements, oyster statements, TfL online account). TfL were copied in, I was copied in, the court were blind copied in.

 

6- I then gathered my articles of evidence, including my own bank statements, oyster statement (proving ownership), a screenshot of my friend's email, plus alllll the evidence she'd already provided.

 

7- I received a phone call from FCC prosecutions. They seemed to be trying to trick me into incriminating myself. I chose my words carefully and stuck to my guns. They demanded further information, I ensured them that I was writing an email that they would receive shortly.

 

8- I sent off an email confronting them with the TfL Byelaws and my account of their inconsistencies with such laws. I basically ripped into their conduct from every conceivable angle, destroyed the credibility of their evidence and ultimately the RPI. I included all of my gathered evidence (well, the relevant bits), including a copy of my travelling companion's previous email.

 

9- I received a phone call shortly afterwards from the prosecutor pretty much admitting defeat. He accepted my evidence and told me that they would providing no evidence in court. He also tried to convince me not to show up - I was suspicious.

 

10- On the day of the case, I turned up at court, looking fresh and well dressed (unusual for me). Prosecution were shocked and looked visibly worried when I identified myself before the judge. They tried to prevent me from giving my evidence (I had a huge file under my arm and they obviously had quite an idea what was in it). I was allowed to explain to the judge why I had showed up - the prosecution tried to interrupt me, but the judge didn't allow it. I felt I'd only just begun to get my point across when the judge dismissed the case. The prosecution looked quite relieved.

 

11- Here I am...! :smile:

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Good for you - well done for sticking to what you believed was right and for having the balls to stand up for yourself in court.

 

It does go to show that in some cases the Train co.s are just trying it on by sending out threatening letters etc. without having a good case.

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