bailiff and parking fine - help!

[darkangeldax]

I originally posted this on the parking fine thread but someone suggested maybe posting here...

 

I sold a car several months ago and a few days later the new owners committed a parking contravention. First I heard of this was when a bailiff called and said that i we didnt pay the fine, he would return with a locksmith and remove our goods. My wife was terrified and intimidated, so paid up, about £400, and the bailiff then said that as we claimed to be innocent, and all we had to do was file a stat dec and we would be refunded the money in about two weeks.

We did as we were told, went to court, explained we had paid and we were innocent - even showed the dvla proof we had to show we were not the owners therfore could not have commited the offence and that went through ok.. we then had a letter from TEC saying they had sent the revoking order to the council but they did not respond to the forms in the given time.

I am now in the process od communicating with Hounslow council and they are refusing to repay the money at all...They told me to take it up with the new vehicle owners as they refuse to refund me.. Is there anything i can do here? I know we should not have paid but the bailiff threatened our stuff so I felt we had no choice.. Is there anything I can do to get my money back? why should I have to pay the fine for a stranger in a car I had sold!.. Please help...

[brassnecked]

The bailiff threatened an illegal action, he could not come back with locksmiths, and you don't have to let a bailiff in. He did this to make you pay under false pretences as you were no longer responsible for the car. Fraud to anyone else but not for bailiffs according to the police, they would say sorry mate it's civil. He doesn't care who pays wrongfully as all he wants are his fees, he would get next doors cat to pay up if it had the money.

 

Formal Complaint to Head of parking, and copy it to the elected leader and CEO, also your MP and councillor imho.

 

Other Caggers will know more

[darkangeldax]

Thank you for that.. So you think I should go after the Bailiffs as opposed to the council? when I rang the bailiff they said that they would refund the money once the council got in touch with them and ordered them to revoke it, which is what I thought the stat dec did..

[ploddertom]

The Council employed the Bailiff as their contractor/agent. Therefore the Council remain responsible for their actions. It is up to the Council to reimburse you and for them to chase the Bailiff. If you get stuck issue an N1 in the County Court and name both Council & Bailiff's as Co-Defendants.

 

PT

[darkangeldax]

This is a copy of the email I recieved from the council today...

 

 

We have noted your comments; however, the revoking order is only applicable for an unpaid penalty charge notice. Our records show that you made payment and then filed the out of time witness statement and therefore it is not valid as the Local Authority does not consider the witness statement valid. There are no provisions made in the Traffic Management Act which permits you to contest a PCN after payment has been made.

I appreciate this may not be the response you were expecting; the Local Authority are required to follow the regulations in accordance to the Traffic Management Act 2004.

[brassnecked]

Tell the council that you didn't own the car at the time of the PCN and DVLA had the docs, explain to them that the bailiff acted fraudulently by pushing you for payment of a PCN that was nothing whatsoever to do with you, and that as they are liable for the bailiffs "criminal act" which was tantamount to demanding money with menaces, as he was acting as your agent, they will be named as co defendants on the N1 as suggested by ploddertom.

 

What they are saying is that as you have paid a PCN on a car you don't own you should suck it up and stand the loss

 

Others should know more

[tomtubby]

The response from the local authority is INCORRECT !!

 

However, I am somewhat confused.

 

Did you advise DVLA when you sold the car?

 

When the contravention took place, the local authority would have applied to DVLA for keeper info and the Notice to Owner, Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery would have been sent to THAT person registered with DVLA. If payment is not forthcoming a warrant is then issued and this will again be sent to the person in whose name the car was registered on the date of contravention.

 

If the new Keeper details were not updated quickly enough, then you would have received all statutory notices and if so, did you ignore them all?

 

A valid Stat Dec will REVOKE the warrant and you would be entitled to be put back in the same position that you were in BEFORE a bailiff visit. The LA are wholly responsible for refunding you the bailiff fees and the amount of the PCN. They MUST do this.

[darkangeldax]

We did advise the DVLA immediatley, and sent off the V5 the day the car changed hands. I have evidence from the DVLA which shows the v5 andthe date that it was sold which Is why we thought it would be a very straightforward case and would be refunded swiftly, which is what the bailiff kept telling my wife... I cant undertsand why it was me that recieved the warrant as I did everything correctly. Even had a receipt for the sale of the car but the magistrate was only interested in teh DVLA evidence which is why he approved my sta dec i suppose..

 

Not sure if this helps but this is the first email I had from the council....

 

Thank you for your e-mail.

We have noted your comments, however unfortunately the Witness Statement and Revoking Order to which you make reference only relate to unpaid penalty charge notices. As payment of the outstanding amount was made prior to the Witness Statement and Revoking Order being issued they do not apply to the case.

Please be advised several notices were issued by the London Borough of Hounslow to the address which was registered with the DVLA prior to the case being handed to Collect Services Limited. It was your responsibility to ensure the details held by the DVLA were up to date and that either a mail redirection service was set up or that you collected your mail from your old address on a regular basis.

Unfortunately as payment has been made, the case is considered paid and closed. A refund therefore will not be issued in this instance. The London Borough of Hounslow can only suggest that you take the issue up with the person you sold the vehicle to separately.

[tomtubby]

Did you receive the Notice to Owner, Charge Certificate or Order for Recovery?

[darkangeldax]

No, we didnt recieve any of these....

[tomtubby]

This is REALLY confusing.

 

Now, what you need to do is to contact the Traffic Enforcment Centre and ask them to CONFIRM the precise address that they have for this warrant. If the address is your you eed to ask them whether they have any PREVIOUS address listed. You will need the PCN number when you call them. Please post back when you have called TEC.

[darkangeldax]

Hi

 

I have called the TEC and they confirmed they had the our previous address, where we had recently moved from, not our present address, and that the correspndence had gone there.

[tomtubby]

Did the bailiff visit you at your CURRENT address. I hope that the answer is YES...

[darkangeldax]

Yes, he did, although the paper he gave me, the bill, had our old address on it, but he came to our current address and said he had tracked us down..

[brassnecked]

Looks like they should refund then, was the warrant issued to your new address or was it still for the old address, and the bailiff had traced you and relied on a potentially void warrant?

 

Tomtubby is the expert on this one imho, so stick with her advice

[tomtubby]

OK...We are getting there.

 

Not looking too good for Hounslow at the moment.

 

Can you ask Hounslow to confirm the date on which they made their request to DVLA for keeper info following the contravention.

[darkangeldax]

Hi thanks ,

I am looking at the yellow slip now part of our file , and it even has our previous address on it, then it has the previous address scribbled out and our current address written on the slip, he said he tracked us down. Trust me you CANT get through to Hounslow via phone as they ave so many complaints it all automated, I have just emailed , bear in mind they are slow n rubbish so reply will be by next week, I wonder what else I can do Ill just bombard them with emails you see ! as they dont reply when you send them just one email I have to keep numbering them as part of bombardment and CC myself for copies, please let me know , we have our file at the moment so please feel free to ask us whatever , also note I have been court and had to pay £25 for the revoke to go through had to swear oathes etc.. took all morning out of my working day, many thanks again people , thanks alot for info thus far.

 

we have the dvla copy of V% and their confirmation letter stating the new keeper aquired vehicle on 15th JUNE 2010

we have the yellow contravention from bailif it says the contravention date is 18th JUNE2010 , and date of ticket and money handover is 5th April 2011

I dont know how quick dvla change details over (within days /mins / hours) but the parking via new owners happened 2 daysafter and any previou info would definetly have gone to previous address.

[brassnecked]

"am looking at the yellow slip now part of our file , and it even has our previous address on it, then it has the previous address scribbled out and our current address written on the slip, he said he tracked us down."

 

I think, and others will know more that the bailiff was naughty here as the warrant has to be OFFICIALLY reissued to the new address, and he cannot enforce on the original, with a new address scribbled in.

 

Formal Complaint time, whatever the outcome imho, but tomtubby will have the best advice here

[darkangeldax]

OK thanks , will wait for TomTubby , thanks for all your info too ,

We have all the papers in our file infront of us ready for bombardment etc.. thanks again appreciated.

[brassnecked]

Now you have the evidence it may be worth informing the police that a bailiff fraudulently extorted money from you for a PCN that wasn't yours on pain of taking goods, and you paid up under duress, and try to get a crime number. they may turn round and say it is civil, but maybe as you have proof of change of ownership they may change the habit of a lifetime and do something.

[darkangeldax]

Do you think it may be best to contact the bailiff first, and tell them we plan to do that, or jut go ahead and try? I cant see the police being interested to be honest and as we dont have any witnesses, it would be my wifes word against the bailiff...

[brassnecked]

I wouldn't contact the bailiff, as he gave you the bum steer and frightened her into paying him, perhaps a Formal Complaint to the council CEO is one course of action, to take with tomtubby's suggestions the main thrust

[darkangeldax]

Ok got the email at last here goes:

the dvla confirmation letter stating the new keeper aquired vehicle was on 15th JUNE 2010

the contravention from bailif it says the contravention date is 18th JUNE2010

AND the email from Hounslow is :>>

Thank you for your email.

The initial DVLA enquiry was carried out on the 21st of June 2010 and the response was received on the 22nd of June.

Regards,

Parking Services

Business Support Officer

Environment Department - Parking Services

t 020 8583 6666

f 020 8583 4889

e [email protected]

w www.hounslow.gov.uk

[darkangeldax]

Hi Tomtubby here is what we have got from Hounslow council today:

 

Ok got the email at last here goes:

the dvla confirmation letter stating the new keeper aquired vehicle was on 15th JUNE 2010

the contravention from bailif it says the contravention date is 18th JUNE2010

AND the email from Hounslow is :>>

Thank you for your email.

The initial DVLA enquiry was carried out on the 21st of June 2010 and the response was received on the 22nd of June.

Regards,

Parking Services

Business Support Officer

Environment Department -Parking Services

t 020 8583 6666

f 020 8583 4889

e [email protected]

w www.hounslow.gov.uk