Employer used lieu days on husbands behalf - is it legal?

[lexis200.2]

Hi all

 

First off, it's slightly embarrassing but I've been off the forums for so long that I've forgotten every single one of my login details, hence the new registration. For anyone that remembers me, as lexis200, hello:) (and if you're site team, any help finding my details would be really handy!)

 

Right, last year my hubby accrued several lieu days for extra work which were carried over to this year. Unfortunately his boss is a complete **ob and over the past year has flat refused to acknowledge these owed days, even though he has been asked about them on frequent occasions openly in the office. Hubby checked with HR and he definitely had them, but until his boss signed them off he couldn't use them.

 

Hubby had his yearly appraisal at work recently and was told by his boss that he had 'used your lieu days on your behalf' for a period he had off sick LAST December, but had not told him this on the numerous occasions hubby had asked for his days (because he 'doesn't talk about that sort of thing in the office'), and had not informed hubby that this was being done.

 

The reason he gave for doing this was that hubby was getting near his SSP limit, and his boss thought he'd use the lieu days rather than letting him go on SSP.

 

Hubby's days off sick amounted to 4 days in the December, and two disputed (I'm 99% sure his boss has added them in as sick days whilst he was working, either out of the office or at home) ones earlier in the year - much earlier than the 8 week period that would allow both sets of sickness to be counted as one period.

 

First of all, I'm utterly appalled that his boss has a)not mentioned anything about this despite being asked frequently since January this year and b)that he's done it at all!

 

Secondly, even if it is legal for him to take the days without hubby's knowledge, he'd only have needed to take one day, as afaik SSP kicks in on day 4 of a period of sickness.

 

I should add that his boss has a real issue with hubby in general, which has, I suspect, led to this cock and bull story which is essentially his way of sticking two fingers up at my husband.

 

So, is what he's done legal? Can you just remove someone's holiday arbitrarily without informing them in order to stop SSP starting (or even disregarding that last bit, can he just take the holiday without hubbys knowledge?)

 

Thanks for any help

 

lexis

[citizenB]

Hello Lexis, nice to see you again

 

I will ask Webmaster if he can find "the old" you on the system. Will also try and find some help regarding OH's employer.

[rebel11]

Hi Lex

 

I don't think the 'boss'can do that without your Husbands agreement. Also has the 'boss' done that to any of the other employees?. What does it say in his 'Terms and Conditions of employment? I would do the research, providing it doesn't say that in the T & C's of employment, then have an informal chat with the 'boss'.

If that doesn't do the trick, then lodge a Formal Grievance. The Grievance can be lodged with other people, it doesn't have to be lodged with the 'boss', but check the employee handbook.

[silverfox1961]

I know nothing of employment law but one thing shouts 'unfair' to me.

 

On one hand the boss won't acknowledge the lieu days then on the other uses them for sick days.

[lexis200.2]

Thanks for the replies...

 

Rebel - no, this hasn't happened to any of the other employees. This is just the latest in a long list of stuff directed at my husband. Always behind closed doors, nothing ever in writing etc etc. There's a whole back story which I won't go into just in case, but boiled down to the bare facts, the boss was royally reprimanded a year or so ago for his behaviour, much of it centred on how he treated hubby, and since then has essentially been out to sabotage him in any way he can. It's further complicated by his (the boss') standing in the company, and familial ties with the top dog there. I'll ask my husband to check his contract and see what that says, but I'd be amazed if that sort of clause is in there as they are actually a pretty good company to work for (**obby boss aside:))

 

Silverfox - Too right! It seems monumentally wrong, but this is how he works. Trouble is he is perfectly happy to contradict himself as he seems to think no-one will notice, and if/when they do he simply refuses to talk about it. It's like trying to reason with a pi**y 7 year old.

[lexis200.2]

Hi CB:)

 

It's lovely to see you again too! I can't believe it's so long since I've been on - time slips away very quickly when you keep thinking 'I'll do that tomorrow'

 

I hope you're ok and everything is ticking along as it should be?...

 

L xx

 

ps - login stuff is being looked into for me by the lovely cerberusalert; really hoping I can get my old id back as I have all the threads on there. And my lime cat:D

[rebel11]

It would be good idea to keep a diary. The fact that the 'boss' hasn't applied the same policy to anybody else could amount to 'unfair treatment'.

[citizenB]

Hi lexis, yes I saw that cerb was sorting it out for you.

 

You say that the boss is not putting anything in writing.. very clever that. In which case you could be equally clever and write a letter to the boss. Along the lines of hubby isnt happy with this issue and could the boss confirm the legality of his actions. If he doesnt respond then you know you have him banged to rights and can take it further.. If he does respond.. well it will be interesting to see how he explains it away and you could possibly still take it further

[lexis200.2]

Hi lexis, yes I saw that cerb was sorting it out for you. Yep:) I do feel like a twonk though - who forgets both the password and email address used?? The only thing I remembered was my username:rolleyes:

 

You say that the boss is not putting anything in writing.. very clever that. In which case you could be equally clever and write a letter to the boss. Along the lines of hubby isnt happy with this issue and could the boss confirm the legality of his actions. If he doesnt respond then you know you have him banged to rights and can take it further.. If he does respond.. well it will be interesting to see how he explains it away and you could possibly still take it further

 

Yeah he's not silly in that respect. Trouble is his whole argument of 'I don't talk about things like this in an open office' falls down on two counts - 1) He's been asked about it in the office yes, but there was more than one occasion when no-one was around, and 2) hubby suddenly remembered yesterday that he emailed him about the days months ago; of course there was no reply to that. He's going to have a word with HR and see what happens there. I suspect they will not be impressed with this course of action (again, not the first time this sort of thing has happened - he tried to stop his whole dept. playing an inter-dept game a while ago because they were 'too busy' to do frivolous things like that. The games were being played in their lunch hour.), but if nothing comes of it I'm going to trot down to the CAB and see what they think.

 

It would be good idea to keep a diary. The fact that the 'boss' hasn't applied the same policy to anybody else could amount to 'unfair treatment'.

 

Pretty much every contact he has had with him since the major issue a year or so ago has been detailed in full. There is no doubt this is personal, and without going into details about them, there are many instances where he could quite easily prove unfair treatment. His one and only reason for not creating the mother of all fights with this man is that we need him to be employed. I do know that it's not likely he'd be sacked for speaking up, but on the other hand it's also highly unlikely his boss would either, and that would create one (even more) awful working situation. It's a bit of a Catch22, and at the moment he's not wanting to start a big fight... but he does want those lieu days!

[lexis200.2]

I've just found a copy of the most recent contract, and there is nothing regarding holidays or sick pay aside from the usual. There's certainly nothing that even comes close to 'if he feels like it, your manager can at will remove holiday giving no reason, then leave it a year to tell you'. Admittedly that would be a little specific but you get the gist:)

 

The holiday bit just states that the company has the right to require the employee to take holiday at a certain time, and if you don't use it in a year it you lose it unless agreed otherwise. Clearly if he's taken it away he had agreed it, so neither of those count.

 

The only bit in the sickness absence part that also mentions holiday states that if you are sick during a holiday you can't then claim back those leave days. It does also state the company will pay the full salary for a period of their discretion, but will notify the employee in writing when that time is to end. My husband did not receive any such message in writing or otherwise, so my assumption based on their own contract is that they were not about to reduce his payment to SSP, which further makes a mockery of the boss' reason for taking his days.

 

He's a bad bad man:(

[rebel11]

You could copy HR into any conversation or action that your husband is not happy with, send it to the HR Department, send it Recorded. They can put it into your husbands personnel file.

[lexis200.2]

Hi guys

 

Thanks for all the advice on this.

 

My husband spent a couple of hours talking to HR about this, and essentially his choices are to speak to his boss on the quiet and ask him to give the days back, or (and this was pushed heavily) file a grievance against him. I phoned the CAB and ACAS to confirm this, and found out that as it was lieu days rather than holiday it is a breach of contract that he removed them without consulting hubby rather than a legal issue.

 

Trouble is, he was also told by HR that if he did file a grievance that it was highly unlikely that anything devastating would happen to his boss, so he'd be in the situation of having put in a complaint and still being directly under him. When he pointed out he would likely then get vindictive HR said he's not allowed to. Well seeing as he's also not allowed to remove days, try and stop them having lunches and dozens (no exaggeration) of other things that's not really comforting!

 

They (the company) really just want people to start making formal complaints/filing grievances so that they can get more serious with the boss, but obviously no-one wants to be that first person! We'll be having a think about what to do now...

 

Thanks again for the help all:)