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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
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Disciplinary Work Hearing


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Hello everyone,

as i am new to this site please be patient with me,

 

im facing a disciplinary hearing in work soon.

 

The allegation is gross misconduct being more specific damage to the work urinals,

 

work have shown me still images of people entering the toilet including myself within a timescale via the corridor cctv,

and have provided an unsigned witness statment who states that they heard the damage actually happen,

 

in the first witness statement it states that the first person in was in there for only an extremely brief time,

this has been proven by the images as 7 seconds,

then described on the statement a second a few minutes later entered and caused the damage,

this has been timed as 3 mins 55 seconds,

then i enter some 15 minutes after the first person left,

 

the witness then states that after 20 minutes in the loo they left and told manager,

passing the last person to enter without telling them any thing,

 

now the informant and the last person where in there for 12 secs together without talking,

then at the end of the statement it states that the damage happened just before the informent left,

so meaning me,

when it states that he said at the start of the statement that the second person a few minutes later caused the damage,

 

i gave my side of the story then my manager said he will have to arrange another investigatory meeting ,

 

meeting with the informant again and also the last person to enter,

he never interviewed the last person only this informant who clearly states on the second again unsigned statement that it happened just before i left,

 

in the managers e mail about this second statement he states that he found this meeting useful.

 

now the first statement was taken 16 days after the alleged event and the second statement 30 days after the allegation

and more importantly the second statement was when i was suspended

 

i stated that most know about my suspension so that the informent must know as well and therefore this statment is tarnished and completely different to the first,

 

my manager did not listen and has found me guilty ,

so the next step is this disciplinary hearing,

it has to be mentioned that the first manager is my own and does not have great feelings for me because im on restrictive duties he finds me a hinderence to his shift,

 

i have reasons for this as well, so thanks and please give me some advice..................

..............

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did you do it?

 

dx

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

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are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Having a bit of a problem unscrambling the sequence of events, perhaps you could clarify.

 

The first prospective culprit went in, stayed 7 seconds then came back out. Would it be fair to assume that he did not do the damage as he had little time to do anything much?

 

The second prospective culprit went in, stayed just short of 4 minutes and then came back out. Would it be fair to say that he had plenty of time to cause the damage?

 

The third prospective culprit went in, that was you. You went in some 15 minutes after the first prospective culprit left, and presumably the second prospective culprit had left as well by then.

 

You do not specify the length of time you spent in there, or if you noticed anything amiss, or anyone else in there. If the urinals were damaged, would you not have noticed?

 

The fourth prospective culprit went in after you had come out, how long after? How long was he in for? Did he notice anything amiss, or any damage? Did he report anything?

 

Would it be correct to conclude from what you say that the witness who wrote the statement had been in the toilet for about 20 minutes and that this 20 minutes covered the time period in which prospective culprits 1, 2 and 3 came and went, and prospective culprit 4 was still in there when he left? Would he have been perhaps in one of the toilet cubicles? Would anyone wishing to cause damage not have made sure that nobody was around to witness his actions? Would he not have noticed that there was a potential witness in there?

 

From what you appear to be saying the same witness wrote two statements. In the first he says that prospective culprit 2 caused the damage and in his second statement he is saying that prospective culprit 3, you, did it. Is there any reason why his second statement should be believed and not his first?

 

Is there any reason why prospective culprit 4 and the witness who wrote the statements should conspire against you? Could, for example, the witness be too scared of prospective culprit 4 to implicate him?

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Hello, to clarify, informant in at 11.30.03 out at 11.50.11. 1st culprit in at 11.31.51. Out at 11.31.58 so 7 seconds, 2nd culprit in 11.35.13. Out 11.35.43, so 30 seconds, 3rd culprit me in at 11.46.36 out at 11.47.09, so 33 seconds, culprit 4 in at 11.49.55 out dont know not told, informant out at 11.50.11 so 20 minutes inside toilet. When i entered i never saw anything or heard anything, just used the urinals and left.the first informant statement taken before i was suspended and taken 16 days after the allegation states in it that the second person described as a few minutes later caused the damage, this is timed at 3.55 after culprit 1 left.it states thatwitness heard damage for between 8 -10 seconds kicking sounds. Two urinals damaged as stated in photograph taken after event, but they are only investigating one urinal damage because the informant stated that he only saw one urinal leaking but on his second statement remembers about the othe oneas well. Other toilet damage has recently happened as well including bodily fluids being put on the walls of both m and f toilets. When i enquired about this i was told that all attempts had been undertaken but these proved to be futile. This being after we all had a letter from the operations director stating that there are ways of finding who this person are, but no action was taken the first witness statementstates that the 2nd culprit done it and at the end also states that this happened 2 mins before informant left meaning me, i stated that this ending sentence stating this two minute timescale does not seem to be in keeping with the rest of the statement, ie i think its been added. The manager said he would talk to culprit 4 and informant again culprit 4 never spoke to , informant spoke to again 30 days after allegation. Infornant said in the 1st statement that 1 or 2 people entered , the second statement that positively 2 or 3 entered but the damage definately happened 2 mins beforew he left, meaning me. This second statement was again unsigned. Also stated on the second statement that he saw the damage to the other urinal but never mentioned this the first time around. Finally culprit 4 entered 16 seconds before informant left, i asked why informant never mentioned this to culprit 4, why did culprit4 not mention about any damage, many thanks any advice before i see my solicitor and the disciplinary hearing , finally the manager mentioned his resonable belief for his reason

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Thanks for the clarification.

 

This stinks (pardon the pun). The witness who made the statement was in there for over 20 minutes. If you exclude the time prospective culprits 1, 2, 3 and 4 were in there he would have been in there on his own for a total of 18.5 minutes approximately.

 

I think it sounds more than a bit strange that anyone intent on causing damage would not have checked to ensure that there were no witnesses before he started causing the damage.

 

I think it also sounds more than a bit strange that the so-called witness did not call out or come out when he heard the din, and that having noticed the damage as he was leaving he did not mention anything about what he had heard and what he was seeing to the only other person in there (prospective culprit 4).

 

It sounds to me like the witness who made the statements is making them up, that he is trying to drop you in it (pardon the pun) to deflect suspicion from himself.

 

Perhaps you might think of some reason why the manager should take his word for it rather than yours, because, based on what you have said so far about his statements, I can’t see why he should be believed.

 

If I were manager I would also be questioning why he spends so much time in there. It is also peculiar that he did not bother washing his hands but went straight out. Could it be that he was not using the toilet for its intended purpose, or was he in such a hurry to get out because he did not want to be confronted and possibly quizzed about the damage by prospective culprit 4 who had just come in? Seems like very furtive behaviour to me.

 

You say that toilets have been damaged again since the incident in question and despite claims that the culprits of those incidents can be discovered no action is being taken. Would I be right in assuming that if they had any evidence that could link those incidents to you they would link them to you? Can the ‘witness’ account for his movements when those other incidents occurred? I would be demanding that his toilet breaks were totted up to see if there is a possible link.

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Hello, the damage to other toilets happened before this incident, but after this event blood was smeared onto walls of toilets, on another shift, i asked about this and was again brushed aside with the fact that all incidents are fully investigated, the informants first statement states that he did wash his hands, the manager finds me a hinderence to his shift due to my restrictive abilities, before september all was fine in work, september i was sent home unpaid 5 times due to no work being available for me. Now i stated that 3 out of the 5 times i was sent home i had been doing that job before september with no issue, i was then told that because it was not on my work physio assessment due only to a clerical error that i was not allowed on this task yet before september was allowed on it, then they being manager said that the crewing had been cut back so i would not be able to rotate on that role which is untrue, other incidents have happened this year including him telling me that i will never be trained the way you are. Meaning because of my restrictions im useless, finally i have never been sat down and signed anthing to agree to these deductions from my pay. Lastly i questioning the actual statements if they are not signed then does this mean that they being the informant does not exist?.................................. Thanks

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Hi

 

This does stink the best you can do know is get your defence to this sorted.

 

1. The Witness Statement are un-signed therefore these statements are no better than hearsay. (If these were actually true statement then why have the witnesses not signed them and who actually has written these statements?). Please remember with this not to inform employer as this gives them the opportunity to correct the mistake you are now defending yourself.

2. Why did it take 16 days to get a witness statement (were they off work on holiday etc i would ask for clarification as this should really have been done that day or then next day)

3. Their is actually no physical evidence that you carried out this damage only hearsay and the cctv outside the toilet in corridor only shows who entered and exited toilet. (as they are using this cctv footage as evidence request copies of that cctv footage).

4. Why has the informant not been questioned properly as he had the most opportunity to cause this damage then realise there mistake and who had came and went from toilet so they could have blamed anyone that entered and exited during this time in toilet to cover their tracks.

5. You need to get copies of there disciplinary & grievance procedures, staff handbook (if one issued), witness statements, cctv footage.

 

Has the company also explained to you your rights to be accompanied at the meeting by either a union rep or work colleague as this is a Gross Misconduct hearing.

 

Please also have a look at the ACAS website IMHO this really stinks.

Edited by stu007

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Hi

 

also have a look at ACAS website heres the link:

 

www.acas.org.uk

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HELLO ALL, HAD DISCIPLINARY HEARING, MEETING ADJOURNED SO I CAN PRESENT CASE I MORE DETAILED ORDERED FASHION. THEY BEING WORK ARE STILL GOING WITH IMFORMANT STATEMENT AND ARE STATING THE VERY LAST SENTENCE OF THE FIRST STATEMENT ALONG WITH THE CCTV FOOTAGE WHICH SHOWS ME ENTER AND EXIT ONLY, I WILL WORD THE STATMENT FOR ALL TO SEE AND ADVISE BEFORE I GO BACK TO SEEK MORE LEGAL ADVICE, I WILL PRESENT TWO STATMENTS. QUOTE 1ST STATEMENT SENT VIA EMAIL 16 DAYS AFTER EVENT................ to the best of my ability i will be as acurate as possible as it was over 2 weeks now, i recall being in the furthest or end wall cubicle, during my time i was in the lavatory i think only 2 people, or the same person came in whilst i was there.the first appeared to only be in there for an extremely brief time, as if they didnt use the facilities at all. the second a few minutes later, who by the sounds of it , used the urinals in a normal fashion, then based on the noise i heard, proceeded to violently kick something, repeatedly for about 8 to 10 secs, which sounded hollow or wooden, and not masonry. i was immediately alarmed as it was very loud and gave me quite a shock. my first thought was why were the cubicles not moving or responding to the kicks or blows being showered upon them,and in an instant realised the blows must be directed at something else,...but i couldnt imagine what. i didnt quickly picture any other area so close that could sound like what i was hearing. the person then left without pausing to wash hands. i completed my visit to the cubicle and came out expecting to find immediate signs of vandalism or destruction to something, but i didnt see anything right away.it was only when i looked further around that i spotted the centre urinal leaking quite heavily from the u-bend water trap, now finally explaining the results of the kicking.tell tale witness marks had been left, by a black object/boot sole, on the water trap and the kicks had clearly followed through to the wood paneled false wall behind the urinals, explaining the hollow noise.after staring in disbelief at the actions of totally unnecessary destruction for a short period, i washed my hands and left passing CULPRIT D MY WORDINGS EVERYONE CANT MENTION NAMES on the way out. i didnt pause to mention the above to CULPRIT, but went to inform the shift manager.the time between the person in question leaving the toilets and me leaving the cubicle was approx.2 mins. THATS THE STATEMENT. BECAUSE WORK SAY THE CCTV MATCHES THE VERY LAST SENTENCE THEN THATS IT, IVE ARGUED ABOUT THE FIRST SECTION OF THE STATEMENT TO NO AVAIL, SO BEFORE I PUT THE SECOND STATEMENT ON WHICH THEY ARE NOT USING BECAUSE THEY NOW CHOSE TO GO ALONG WITH THE FIRST STATEMENT BUT IN THE INVESTIGATORY MEETINGS TWO OF THEM CHOSE TO BELIEVE THE SECOND STATEMENT, ADVISE PLEASE , ALL TIMES ARE MENTIONE IN EARLIER POSTS THANKS .........................................

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Hi

 

Have they explained why these statements are unsigned and taken 16 days after said incident?

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Hi

 

Also have you requested that these witness who have made the statements as they are employees are present so that you may question them as you are entitled too.

 

Also has it been explained to you that you have the right to have either a Union representative or work colleague with you at these meeting?

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they are deciding to keep all witness identity secret from me, yes i am represented. what i want to know is why are they not listening to the start of the statement ?? instead they are remaining with the very last sentence thanks...................

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi

 

they should have explained your reasons for dismissal at the hearing and your right to appeal and they will forward this in writing to you. (If possible it may be useful when you get the letter to scan and put on forum minus personal details).

 

I still think this stinks, they refused you permission to question the witnesses and kept them secret. (Do you have it in writing that they refused this request)

 

Also if they are keeping the witnesses secret who actually wrote these witness statement. (did the statements have the employees name on them).

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hello, all that was said was that i done the act based on the anonymous witness, he heard noises and said it happened within the last few mins, so based on that they decicded to terminate my employment, also stated by manager that i had repeatedly failed to take responsibilityfor my actions and tried to blame others. yes they did tell me about appeal hearing, i asked why the witness remained secret and was told that he asked to remain anonymous, thats it . no have not got it in writing. and no the name of witness blanked out in emailed statement, the other talks with informant are just that they are only verbal between manager and witness, many thanks is this unfair dismissal?, if i dont get anywhere with the appeal then next step is tribunal do you all agree

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Hi

 

Please please look at the ACAS Website and even give then a call.

 

Point out to them:

 

1. The company stated that you done the act based on the anonymous witness statement that was an unsigned email.

2. The company refused you the opportunity to question any witnesses on the basis that they want to remain anonymous. (Could it not be that the person wants to remain anonymous because they actually caused the damage).

 

I would not agree that the next stage is triburnal you would have to go through the appeals procedure beforehand then triburnal.

 

Also have you checked the companies Disciplinary & Grievance policy to see what it states about witnesses remaining anonymous?

(If there is nothing in that i would be asking the company for a copy of the policy/procedure that refers to witnesses).

Edited by stu007

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I cannot give any advice by PM - If you provide a link to your Thread then I will be happy to offer advice there.

I advise to the best of my ability, but I am not a qualified professional, benefits lawyer nor Welfare Rights Adviser.

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Hello again. Could anyone offer me advice on how to defend myself for the appeal hearing against my summary dismissal,all that was said in the disciplinary hearing was that i had no mitigating circumstances. All i done was use the urinal no more, i need to try to overturn this decision so any help please. Also if i loose the appeal then have i got a case for unfair dismissal? Thanks

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Hi

 

Calm down and stop panicing we are trying to help you!!!!!

 

Please answer the questions being asked as there is a valid reason for those questions so a proper picture of your circumsatnces can be made to give you the best advice.

  • Haha 1

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I cannot give any advice by PM - If you provide a link to your Thread then I will be happy to offer advice there.

I advise to the best of my ability, but I am not a qualified professional, benefits lawyer nor Welfare Rights Adviser.

Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

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Hello,in answer to your questions, yes they did explain the reason for dismissal and that was damage to company property under gross misconduct and i did have the right to appeal and this will be in writing.

I did ask why the witness remained annonymous and was told that he wishes for it to remain that way and that it is signed.

I think they meanthat the signature from informant is about his wanting to remain annonymous not the actual statement.

The e mailed statement sent some 16 days after event was questioned by me and the response was that they being the manager was happy with the timescale. The e mailed statement didi have the informants details on but my copy had been blanked out these details or so they said.

I have checked my disciplinary policy and no mention about any witnesses on there.

So in my summary dismissal work have relied on an annonymous statement that the informant stated he heard damage around 2 mins before i left the toilets and that the cctv showed me exit around this time.the last person to enter never interviewed because work said damage already done. But this last person never reported this to management, so i have been sacked on the basis of an annonymous witness.

How do i approach the appeal process because just before he told told me i was dismissed he stated that i had constantly from the start blamed others and that i put in no mitigating circumstances. So all advice welcome

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