Cap1 & CCA return

[The Lantana]

The Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA74) obligates creditors, under various sections of the act (s78, s85 etc.), to provide copies of executed agreements etc. to debtors in certain circumstances.

However IMHO s180 and s189 of the act gives the Secretary of State (SoS) power to determine, by regulations, what constitutes a copy. S180 also states that by complying with the regulations, creditors comply with the act.

So the devil really is in the detail and we must deconstruct the regulations to get to the bottom of this. Could someone please PM me a copy of the regulations?

Regards

Lantana

189. Definitions

“ credit token “ has the meaning given by section 14(1);

“ copy “ shall be construed in accordance with section 180;

“ executed agreement” means a document, signed by or on behalf of the parties, embodying the terms of a regulated agreement, or such of them as have been reduced to writing;

“ prescribed “ means prescribed by regulations made by the Secretary of State;

“ regulations “ means regulations made by the Secretary of State;

78. Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement.

...shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it,...

85. Duty on issue of new credit-tokens

...in connection with a credit-token agreement, a credit-token (other than the first) is given by the creditor to the debtor, the creditor shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it.

180. Power to prescribe form etc. of copies

(l) Regulations may be made as to the form and content of documents to be issued as copies of any executed agreement....or other document referred to in this Act, and may in particular—

(a) require specified information to be included in the prescribed manner in any copy, and contain requirements to ensure that such information is clearly brought to the attention of a reader of the copy;

(b) authorise the omission from a copy of certain material contained in the original, or the inclusion of such material in condensed form.

(2) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act...to supply a copy of any document—

(a) is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

(b) is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations; and references in this Act to copies shall be construed accordingly.

(3) Regulations may provide that a duty imposed by this Act to supply a copy of a document referred to in an unexecuted agreement or an executed agreement shall not apply to documents of a kind specified in the regulations.

[InKogneeToh]

INK for exapmple :---

 

Imagine the judge ordered:--

 

1) Disclosure of documents shall be dealt with as follows:---

 

a) the parties shall give to each other standard disclosure of documents by serving copies together with a disclosure statement by 4 pm on Thursday 1st April 2007

 

b)Any request to Inspect the original of a copy document shall be made by 4pm on thursday 8th April and any such request shall be complied with within fourteen days of receipt of the request. (it used to be 14 days i think !!)

 

 

2) The claim shall be listed for trial during the trial window from 1st Junel 2007 etc etc

3) etc as usual

 

could you explain this in detail apparently they say it happens

imagine it would be a fast track ??

 

 

what would the scenario be --- at least it would stop rabbits being popped out the hat if it ever came to court ................

 

Hi,

 

Here you are entitled to request disclosure of any documents that the other party intend to rely on because the judge has so ordered.

 

My point is that under the general expectations of the court, each party should send to the other (before court proceedings have even started) copies of any documents requested so that each has an opportunity to assess the facts, the strengths and the weaknesses of their evidence. This is to enable open and frank pre-action negotiation between the parties with a view to avoiding litigation altogether.

 

So, if a claim is intended under a credit agreement, whoever holds that document is required to send a copy to the other party on request, before court action is begun.

 

Regards, Pam

[The Lantana]

Thanks for the regs Paulwltn.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[InKogneeToh]

Thanks for the regs Paulwltn.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

 

Hi

 

Is this a copy of the 1983 'copies of docs. regs or the later 2004 version.

 

Regards, Pam

[The Lantana]

1983, so if you've got 2004 I'd be grateful.

[InKogneeToh]

1983, so if you've got 2004 I'd be grateful.

 

Hi

 

No, I don't have the 2004 ones but they should be available on line as most recent S.I.'s are. I would really appreciate seeing the original 1983 ones though!

 

Regards, Pam

[Peterbard]

HI Pam 1983 regs if these are the ones you want i wol=illsend them e-mail me

General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

3.-(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instru­ment or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

© in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and

(d) in the case of any copy given to the debtor under section 77(1) of the .

Act of an executed agreement for fixed-sum credit under which a person takes any article in pawn, any description of the article taken in pawn.

Copies of unexecuted agreements given under section 58(1) of the Act

4. Where the agreement is one to which section 58(1) of the Act applies, every copy of the unexecuted agreement given to a debtor or hirer under section 58(1) of the Act shall include-

[InKogneeToh]

T this is part of the Regs. Not sure what the meaning in (g) relates to.

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

Consumer Credit

 

Surety's copy of enforcement, default and termination notices

10. Every copy of a default notice or a notice under section 76(1) or 98(1) of the Act served on any surety under section 111(1) of the Act shall contain a prominent heading in one of the following forms of words:-

"Surety's copy of notice served on debtor" or

"Surety's copy of notice served on hirer",

as the case may require.

Duty to supply copies of documents not to apply to certain kinds of documents 11. A duty imposed by the Act to supply a copy of a document referred to in an unexecuted agreement or an executed agreement shall not apply to a document of any of the following kinds:-

(a) a document obtained by the debtor or hirer from a person other than the creditor or owner and supplied by the debtor or hirer to the creditor or owner;

(b) a document, not being a security, which constitutes, evidences or relates to title to property of any kind or relates to the rights or duties of the debtor or hirer in respect of such property;

© a document kept, or to be kept, by the debtor or hirer under the terms of, or in consequence of, the agreement;

(d) an official or certified copy of any entry in a register maintained by, or on behalf of, a government department or other body charged with a public administrative or statutory function and open to public inspection (whether in the United Kingdom or elsewhere);

(e) an enactment, other than Schedule 3 to the Conveyancing and Feudal Reform (Scotland) Act 1 970(a);

(f) a document, other than an enactment, published by, or on behalf of, a government department or other body charged with a public administrative or statutory function (whether in the United Kingdom or elsewhere); or

(g) in the case of a modifying agreement, a document embodying the terms of the earlier agreement other than a document a copy of which is required to be given under section 77(1), 78(1), 79(1), 85(1), 105(5), 107(1), 108(1) or 109(1) of the Act.

 

 

24th October 1983.

 

 

 

Alexander Fletcher, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry.

 

 

Hi

 

The section you have quoted here relates to copies of documents to be given to the surety(guarantor) of an agreement taken out by the person he is guarantor for.

 

A modified agreement is a new version of the original where some terms etc have been changed and it requires execution in the same manner as the original.

 

Section (g) is just saying that it is not necessary to give a surety a copy of the original agreement at the same time as he is given a copy of the modified one.

 

Regards, Pam

[The Lantana]

I've PM'd to you Pam, must have crossed with Peter's post.

 

Now I'm off out.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[The Lantana]

Surety does mean guarantor according to my dictionary, I hadn't picked that up.

 

These handy definitions are provided in the Act:

 

“ surety” means the person by whom any security is provided, or the person to whom his rights and duties in relation to the security have passed by assignment or operation of law.

 

“ security “, in relation to an actual or prospective consumer credit agreement or consumer hire agreement, or any linked transaction, means a mortgage, charge, pledge, bond, debenture, indemnity, guarantee, bill, note or other right provided by the debtor or hirer, or at his request (express or implied), to secure the carrying out of the obligations of the debtor or hirer under the agreement.

This, to me, means the surety can also be the debtor - say you borrow money by pawn (pledge), for example. But I guess it also means this bit doesn't apply if a loan is unsecured and there is no guarantor.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[InKogneeToh]

2) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document—

 

(a) is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements; But what IS the prescribed form and the prescribed requirements of a COPY

 

 

(b) is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations;

 

 

and references in this Act to copies shall be construed accordingly.

 

(3) Regulations may provide that a duty imposed by this Act to supply a copy of a document referred to in an unexecuted agreement or an executed agreement shall not apply to documents of a kind specified in the regulations. This is referring to copies of documents referred to in a n agreement, not the agreement itself.

 

Ladybird: In my opinion the sections in blue would overide the mailers.

 

And where the h**l ARE these b****y regulations? I have not been able to find anything on the net that states what exactly the 1983 regs. say about the copies of documents!

 

Regards, Pam

[InKogneeToh]

Hi

 

The following, taken from the 1983 regs. seems to blow our s85 argument out of the water:

 

8. Every copy of an executed credit-token agreement given to the debtor under section 85(1) of the Act where the agreement may be varied under a power contained in it shall comprise an easily legible statement of the current terms of the agreement (whether or not varied in accordance with section 82( 1) of the Act).

 

This reads to me that the 'copy' required under s85 is actually nothing but a statement of the current terms of the agreement. The word comprise means to be made up of or to consist of.

 

Regards, Pam

[InKogneeToh]

And where the h**l ARE these b****y regulations? I have not been able to find anything on the net that states what exactly the 1983 regs. say about the copies of documents!

 

Regards, Pam

 

 

Sorry for naughty words! Have now received copy of regs. from Lantana (cheers) but now wish I hadn't read them 'cos it's not looking so good!

 

Regards, Pam

[Guest Battleaxe]

Pam,

This applies to the T & C. They still have to supply a true copy of the executed agreement together with the T & C's. The mailer is not a true copy of your executed agreement.

[InKogneeToh]

Hi Battleaxe

 

I understand and agree entirely with the general consensus on here that a copy of an executed agreement should be a true copy but I am very concerned about the terminology used in this particular reg. If it means a copy of the agreement under s85 should 'include' or 'be accompanied by' a copy of the current T&Cs why doesn't it say that? I think this issue about the choice of the word 'comprise' has been discussed before on this site but no authoritative conclusions were reached.

 

Perhaps we should write to the OFT for their interpretation of this requirement.

 

I know that you are currently helping a fellow CAGer with a claim involving s85 and would hate to think that we have actually got it wrong and that the industry has been doing it right all this time.

 

I still can't get my head round the notion that so many CC providers could have messed up so badly. I am hoping to challenge some of my agreements on this issue myself and need to be pretty sure that we are correct in our assumptions.

 

I have already been beaten down in court once before over the issue of the right to reclaim monies already paid under an unenforceable agreement when all the evidence seemed to support my interpretation of the situation.

 

I was left thinking that perhaps I was interpreting the issues how I wanted them to be and hope we are not doing the same here!

 

Regards, Pam

[joneshousehold]

I seem to remember a discussion somewhere in the past about what the word comprise means. Here is a definition from an online dictionary

 

1. to include or contain: The Soviet Union comprised several socialist republics.

2. to consist of; be composed of: The advisory board comprises six members.

3. to form or constitute: Seminars and lectures comprised the day's activities.

—Idiom4. be comprised of, to consist of; be composed of: The sales network is comprised of independent outlets and chain stores.

No 1 suggests it is part of the whole whereas the others could read more like it means makes up the whole. I am sure the discussion was earlier in this thread but I can't be sure.

 

S85 seems to say that both the executed agreement and the up to date T&C's ahould be provided.

85 Duty on issue of new credit-tokens

 

 

 

(1) Whenever, in connection with a credit-token agreement, a credit-token (other than the first) is given by the creditor to the debtor, the creditor shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it.

 

Interesting debate - NOW GO OUTSIDE AND LOOK AT THE LUNAR ECLIPSE!!!!

[m55dlc]

The word here of any substance is executed. If you have been provided with an executed agreement under the s78 request you may be in trouble. If you have been given a copy of your agreement and it hasn't been executed, they have lost. You cannot provide a copy of something you do not have. If that is not the case, please tell me otherwise?

 

Oh, and if it isn't executed, you haven't complied with s63.4.... again, what else do you need?

[InKogneeToh]

 

Interesting debate - NOW GO OUTSIDE AND LOOK AT THE LUNAR ECLIPSE!!!!

 

Been out as instructed and looked through hubbies 'bins' but 'twas too chilly to linger long in one's PJs!

[The Lantana]

I'm just back from the pub, I'll leave this 'til tomorrow!

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[joneshousehold]

Does anyone know when the time limit for acting on a default notice changed from 7 to 14 days. Sorry to ask but I have searched and I can't find it!

[m55dlc]

Does anyone know when the time limit for acting on a default notice changed from 7 to 14 days. Sorry to ask but I have searched and I can't find it!

 

Go and find the quotes of SeniorService, he quoted it to me end of Jan, Beginning of Feb

[m55dlc]

In fact, he also quoted it yesterday:

 

Hi Corn - Section 14(1) Consumer Credit Act 2006 increased the time period to 14 days from the 7 days allowed in the 1974 Act, from 1.10.06. Period runs from the date of service (usually the day after posting, I think). The Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Electronic Communications) Order 2004 specifically states that default notices must be on paper (as opposed to being emailed). This wouldn't have anything to do with Arrow Global, would it??

 

That was from SeniorService

[ncf355]

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

1983 No. 1557

CONSUMER CREDIT

The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983

 

Hi Paul,

 

dont peear to have a copy of 1557 (just 1553,1555,1561,1569,1570)

 

Could you PM me a copy if you have them? or PM and I'll send you my email, thanks for your help mate

[paulwlton]

Hi Paul,

 

dont peear to have a copy of 1557 (just 1553,1555,1561,1569,1570)

 

Could you PM me a copy if you have them? or PM and I'll send you my email, thanks for your help mate

 

It's on its way. Could you pm me the 1555 please.

[Guest The Terminator]

Hi

 

The following, taken from the 1983 regs. seems to blow our s85 argument out of the water:

 

8. Every copy of an executed credit-token agreement given to the debtor under section 85(1) of the Act where the agreement may be varied under a power contained in it shall comprise an easily legible statement of the current terms of the agreement (whether or not varied in accordance with section 82( 1) of the Act). By the way I still haven't finished reading the regs.

 

This reads to me that the 'copy' required under s85 is actually nothing but a statement of the current terms of the agreement. The word comprise means to be made up of or to consist of.

 

Regards, Pam

 

Hi Pam

 

I stumbled on something in the early hours of this morning when I was reading all 37 pages of the 1983 regs and the CCA(1974).Now I dont know which copy of the CCA your reading but the one I've got is updated to 2003

 

Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

This Act is reproduced with amendments as at 1st February 2003. Crown Copyright material is reproduced with the permission of the Controller of HMSO and the Queen's Printer for Scotland.