Cap1 & CCA return

[Peterbard]

3. You are notified that you are obliged to supply these documents, under S189 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

Hi T

I don;t understand section 189 is about definitons of terms?Am i being thick?

Peter

[Peterbard]

MY personal opinion (and others disagree with me ) is that as long as the application form carries all the required details and summary boxes then it can double up as the main document of a credit agreement. Terms and conditions at the time of signing are also part of it and should have also been sent. Any copies should be legible. The terms and conditions they print on statements can only be applicable if they supply a copy of the ORIGINAL terms and conditions which is what allows them to alter them.

 

An application form will NOT be classed as part of the agreement unless it carries all the stipulated components. I have one which a certain company claim to be the agreement but carries none of the items required. Hence I am persuing them for non compliance.

 

I am also making official complaints with TS about 1 call a day from another company who refuse to acknowledge my letters let alone answer the questions in them. I consider daily calls from India a breach of my privacy, harassement, and it raises the question of them passing my personal data to a company outside the EU let alone the UK. I am convinced that is an offence under the Data Protection Act without my explicit permission.

 

2007 is certainly going to get a lot warmer as I am lighting a lot of fires.

 

I have been in contact with the DTI over my continuing disagreement with them on the use of the 1983 regs in regard to post contractual agreement information requests under sction 77-79 of the act. In the most recent letter to me via my MP they state,"It is also a breach of the Act and the regulations to send the application form rather than a true copy of the Agreement."

 

Peter

[joneshousehold]

That's very interesting peterbard. Presumably they don't go on to say something like - unless the application form contains all the details, summary boxes etc...

I have made a note of this for future reference, thanks very much! Has anyone got anything to cast doubt on the apparant clarity of this statement?

[tamadus]

3. You are notified that you are obliged to supply these documents, under S189 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Hi T

I don;t understand section 189 is about definitons of terms?Am i being thick?

 

Peter

 

section 189 is about definitions Peter and it defines a creditor as follows.

 

“creditor” means the person providing credit under a consumer credit agreement or the person to whom his rights and duties under the agreement have passed by assignment or operation of law, and in relation to a prospective consumer credit agreement, includes the prospective creditor;

hence a DCA will become the creditor if an alleged debt is assigned or sold to them

[tamadus]

MY personal opinion (and others disagree with me ) is that as long as the application form carries all the required details and summary boxes then it can double up as the main document of a credit agreement. Terms and conditions at the time of signing are also part of it and should have also been sent. Any copies should be legible. The terms and conditions they print on statements can only be applicable if they supply a copy of the ORIGINAL terms and conditions which is what allows them to alter them.

 

An application form will NOT be classed as part of the agreement unless it carries all the stipulated components. I have one which a certain company claim to be the agreement but carries none of the items required. Hence I am persuing them for non compliance.

 

I am also making official complaints with TS about 1 call a day from another company who refuse to acknowledge my letters let alone answer the questions in them. I consider daily calls from India a breach of my privacy, harassement, and it raises the question of them passing my personal data to a company outside the EU let alone the UK. I am convinced that is an offence under the Data Protection Act without my explicit permission.

 

2007 is certainly going to get a lot warmer as I am lighting a lot of fires.

 

I have been in contact with the DTI over my continuing disagreement with them on the use of the 1983 regs in regard to post contractual agreement information requests under sction 77-79 of the act. In the most recent letter to me via my MP they state,"It is also a breach of the Act and the regulations to send the application form rather than a true copy of the Agreement."

 

Peter

 

OH Peter my hero pretty please can I have a copy of that letter ?

 

That now makes 3 offences Barclaycard are guilty of

 

2007 is definitely looking aeven better

[Peterbard]

My Pleasure T

 

I Haven't posted any of the responses on here didn't want to upset my MP who so far is being extremely helpful and who just in case he is reading this well deserves the pay rise they are requesting.(nothing wrong with a bit of creeping) i will copy and E-mail it to you.

Peter

 

Peter

[tamadus]

That's very interesting peterbard. Presumably they don't go on to say something like - unless the application form contains all the details, summary boxes etc...

I have made a note of this for future reference, thanks very much! Has anyone got anything to cast doubt on the apparant clarity of this statement?

 

There is and never has been any doubt in my mind where a form is clearly nothing but an application form. The doubt comes with the newer style of application where the main CCA requirments are embodied within it.

 

In theory any piece of paper that includes those requirements and is signed and dated by both parties can form the main body of the agreement.

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/CC4C7B5C-2152-4EC7-B850-C3B6E646869D/0/oft018.pdf

 

see pages 7-14 in particular and also pages 23/24

[joneshousehold]

Quick, call a doctor! Tamadus is having an attack of the over-excited vapours!

I am not allowing myself to be over excited by this latest development. If it is true I will be in a vastly different situation than I first thought. Anyway if it is possible to have a copy of the letter would you mind letting me have one as well peterbard. I will buy you a drink one day!

[tamadus]

Thank you , thank you , thank you Peter

 

[mcuth]

Anyway if it is possible to have a copy of the letter would you mind letting me have one as well peterbard. I will buy you a drink one day!

 

Same goes for me too please Peter

 

Cheers

 

Michael

[Peterbard]

“creditor” means the person providing credit under a consumer credit agreement or the person to whom his rights and duties under the agreement have passed by assignment or operation of law, and in relation to a prospective consumer credit agreement, includes the prospective creditor;

 

Wonderful stuff

 

This will help me with a couple of DCA information requests that are being less than forthcoming at the moment.

 

Thanks for the explination.

 

Peter

[tamadus]

Quick, call a doctor! Tamadus is having an attack of the over-excited vapours!

I am not allowing myself to be over excited by this latest development. If it is true I will be in a vastly different situation than I first thought. Anyway if it is possible to have a copy of the letter would you mind letting me have one as well peterbard. I will buy you a drink one day!

 

LMAO jones,

 

Thats now 3 offences uder the CCA all of which carry a fine of £2500 and/or 6 months imprisonment.

 

The only things I need now are case law over the profiting while committing an unlawful act and to overide the statute of limitations act as this claim is going back a longggggggggg time (28 years long and well into 5 figures)

 

I'm fairly sure sec 36 applies for the limitations and just need to double check it now. Then Monday it's down to the post office again

 

Tickets will shortly be available for seats for flies on the Barclaycard offices wall

[tamadus]

“creditor” means the person providing credit under a consumer credit agreement or the person to whom his rights and duties under the agreement have passed by assignment or operation of law, and in relation to a prospective consumer credit agreement, includes the prospective creditor;

 

Wonderful stuff

 

This will help me with a couple of DCA information requests that are being less than forthcoming at the moment.

 

Thanks for the explination.

 

Peter

 

I had the same from one recently Peter who claimed they were not the creditor but had been assigned the debt. I used that quote to put their mind at rest very quickly

[JonCris]

Well done! 1st the the DTI & now if only we can get the OFT & the ICO to be able to understand the law.

[Peterbard]

Quick, call a doctor! Tamadus is having an attack of the over-excited vapours!

I am not allowing myself to be over excited by this latest development. If it is true I will be in a vastly different situation than I first thought. Anyway if it is possible to have a copy of the letter would you mind letting me have one as well peterbard. I will buy you a drink one day!

 

Sorry i wasn't aware of the discussion on this thread or i would have volunteered it earlier i will send you a copy.

[tamadus]

Well done! 1st the the DTI & now if only we can get the OFT & the Information Commissioners Office to be able to understand the law.

 

Jon please correct me if I am wrong buttttttt doesnt the OFT come under the DTI ???

 

I have now seen the relevant parts of that letter and Peter is correct that is exactly what they say, they also say that just sending T&C would also be an offence.

 

Now my question is how come Peter got a much better reply from Ian McCartney than I did ??

 

Any chance it's because my local MP is a tory ?

 

[TideTurner]

The OFT work with the DTI and are the legal arm (a seperate government dept). The DTI report to the Govt. on all areas of trade and have a section which deals with unfair practices.

[e28bigalbexley]

Sorry to interupt the flow guys, but have you seen this http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/post-467620.html

[tamadus]

Sorry to interupt the flow guys, but have you seen this http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/post-467620.html

 

WOW about time too is all I can say to that finally these tinpot defences are being seen and treated for what they are.

 

I wonder if this is anything to do with something you told me a few weeks ago AL about a conversation in the pub.

[Peterbard]

Now my question is how come Peter got a much better reply from Ian McCartney than I did ??

 

Perhaps he saw that i wasn't as well informed as you T and let his guard down.

Would you like to see the full letter and my response.

 

Peter

[tamadus]

sure would Peter my reply was about 1 page at most lol.

 

I think you have my personal email address

[JonCris]

Sorry to interupt the flow guys, but have you seen this http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/post-467620.html

 

Great the message is getting through.

[JonCris]

Jon please correct me if I am wrong buttttttt doesnt the OFT come under the DTI ??? Correct but as we have seen that doesn't stop the OFT giving apposing & incorrect advice

 

I have now seen the relevant parts of that letter and Peter is correct that is exactly what they say, they also say that just sending T&C would also be an offence.

 

Now my question is how come Peter got a much better reply from Ian McCartney than I did ?? Probably because being Labour Chair he had a minion do it who let the cat out of the bag

 

Any chance it's because my local MP is a tory ? No see above

 

 

My responses in bold

[Acerfan]

In the mood to complain today, so can anyone tell me who I can complain to apart from TS & what the addresses are? - long story but limited computer time. Also, does anyone have any template letters please? 2 companies now committing criminal offences for failure to comply to CCA request. Would be great to have complaints ready for their responses to my 'I'm not going to pay until you can prove I have an agreement with you'

 

Cheers all & a belated happy new year

 

PS Peterbard, could I have a copy of your MP's letter too? Cheers

[Guest The Terminator]

Well done!! I knew the judicery were getting pd off with the banks some months ago but that is another story.Just something else to throw in the pot and it was staring me in the face.Looking through some paperwork this morning I noticed none of the lenders or DCA's had there CCL No's on their paperwork.Im sure that is also an offence but can't see in stature if anyone can find a link the terminator will be most grateful as that will add to a growing list of offences