17 yr old, tickets checked x 3 on train, PFN at station, Southern

[honestcitizen]

I came across the website while trying to find out about PFNs and have been very grateful for the info and posts.

 

My son got a PFN at the station, having (we assume) left his railcard and tickets on the train, where they had been checked three times. The security person issued a PFN and he paid her £2. He was absolutely distraught at having lost his railcard which had cost me £65. The security person eventually told him not to worry and that everything would be all right and to appeal, outlining this on the PFN.

 

I wish I had contacted CAG before appealing. Naively, I assumed that if I followed theinstructions on the PFN including the documentation ie email confirming his railcard and the receipt for the tickets that everything would indeed be all right. It wasn’t.

 

I wrote back, asking them to reconsider. I pointed out (again) that we had already had to pay for part of the journey leg twice (my son and his friend were going to Heathrow and had been given bus tickets from Victoria instead of the requested underground tickets); that the name of our street had been misspelled on the PFN; about my son’s vulnerabilities (probably not wise to go into details on a public forum). IPFAS wrote back saying that no more correspondence would be entered into and if I believed that there had been a failure on their part to process the appeal correctly, to contact PassengerFocus. I did, but was told that IPFAS had misled me as they could not do so until I had heard the outcome from Southern. (Passenger Focus had forwarded my email to them and also my MP had written to Southern). I have now received this. Basically they say that I had not mentioned my son’s vulnerabilities – although I had - and that if I had IPFAS would haveasked for more information.

 

From reading other posts, it seems that, as my son is nearly 18, there is a – small – chance of this ending up in a magistrates’ court . I can’t risk this for my son so I have paid the rest of the penalty fare (over £40). (Tip: go online. I tried phoning and was on hold for over 10 minutes before giving up.)

 

My questions are these:

 

(1) I am going to ask Passenger Focus to pursue this, even if this does end up being a further waste of time. Any tips?

 

(2) I found the SRA policy guidelines 2002 on another site. This seems to make clear that PFNs should be against fare-dodgers, not honest passengers. Do these guidelines not apply anymore?

 

(And yes, I do know my son may have been careless, but he is not a criminal. And yes, I do wish I had been able to take him and his friend to Heathrow myself.)

 

Any advice would be much appreciated.

[rebel11]

Hi honest

 

Welcome to CAG

 

The guys will be happy to advise as soon as they are available.

 

Many of the guys in the Transport forum work in the industry, so will have helpful advice.

[SRPO]

If the fare involved was £2.00 then he wont be prosecuted as the fare is shown to have been paid.

The only option they have if you dont pay the remainder of the PFN is county court, that remedy is VERY rarely used.

Personally I would put the paperwork in the bin & chalk it up to experience.

[honestcitizen]

If the fare involved was £2.00 then he wont be prosecuted as the fare is shown to have been paid.

 

The PFN was for £44.60. My son paid £2. I have paid the rest on his behalf.

 

I agree that it probably is a waste of time and effort pursuing this. What upsets me is that my son was not fare-dodging and according to the SRA policy, the PFNs system is supposed to be against fare-dodgers, not honest passengers.

[Grotesque]

So the single fare for the journey was actually £22.30? Then unfortunately the fare remains unpaid.

 

If the gent is seventeen now, it would be useful to know who soon he will turn eighteen. Within the next couple of months maybe?

[SRPO]

The OP says he paid the remainder of the PFN, so the fare has been paid.

[honestcitizen]

I have paid the PFN. That is not the issue. My questions were:

 

(1)I am going to ask Passenger Focus to pursue this (ie IPFAS did not follow the procedure for appeal in my son's particular case; if the SRA policy guidelines 2002 are still in force, then those who have paid should have the PFN quashed on appeal) Any tips?

 

(2)I found the SRA policy guidelines 2002 on another site. This seems to make clear that PFNs should be against fare-dodgers, not honest passengers. Do these guidelines not apply anymore?

[RPI]

PF's are NOT for fare evaders, prosecution is for fare evaders, your son could have been reported for prosecution (although probably only byelaw 18(2)), although it sounds harsh it would appear that the PF was correctly issued as you must be able to show a valid ticket on demand whilst on the railway, this is in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

PF's are primarily a method of disposing of minor byelaw offences without dragging everybody through the courts.

[Grotesque]

I have paid the rest on his behalf.

 

My mistake!

 

I wonder if PassengerFocus will be of any help though? After all, if you board a train you enter into an implied contract with the rail company, and by buying a ticket you enter into an express contract with them; viz. that they will convey you from A-B safely etc, and on the passengers part that s/he abides by conditions of carriage, byelaws, and statutory provisions etc.

 

The fundamental condition being the ability to present at any time a valid ticket for the journey being made.

 

Unfortunately it seems that the passenger failed to comply with this absolute requirement, which luckilly for him was a deemed a ticket irregularity deserving of a penalty fare rather than, as RPI says, an offence under the byelaws which can result in prosecution for fare evasion.

 

Good luck though, it would be interesting to see what they make of it.

[honestcitizen]

PF's are NOT for fare evaders, prosecution is for fare evaders, your son could have been reported for prosecution (although probably only byelaw 18(2)), although it sounds harsh it would appear that the PF was correctly issued as you must be able to show a valid ticket on demand whilst on the railway, this is in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

PF's are primarily a method of disposing of minor byelaw offences without dragging everybody through the courts.

 

- Apologies - I didn't make myself clear. I see the Policy is actually on the CAG website on a sticky "Penalty Fares Regs". If you read through this, you will see that concern was expressed about honest and fare-paying passengers eg1.4 and 3.4 For example, 4.29 refers to people who have left their season ticket/photocard at home (and just to be clear, I'm not saying that this was exactly the case for my son).

 

What I want to know is: do the Penalty Fares Regulations May 2002 apply to Southern?

[honestcitizen]

My mistake!

 

I wonder if PassengerFocus will be of any help though? After all, if you board a train you enter into an implied contract with the rail company, and by buying a ticket you enter into an express contract with them; viz. that they will convey you from A-B safely etc, and on the passengers part that s/he abides by conditions of carriage, byelaws, and statutory provisions etc.

 

The fundamental condition being the ability to present at any time a valid ticket for the journey being made.

 

Unfortunately it seems that the passenger failed to comply with this absolute requirement, which luckilly for him was a deemed a ticket irregularity deserving of a penalty fare rather than, as RPI says, an offence under the byelaws which can result in prosecution for fare evasion.

 

Good luck though, it would be interesting to see what they make of it.

 

 

As detailed in my post, I sent IPFAS proofs of purchase of my son's railcard plus the receipt for the tickets so I think Southern would have had a hard job prosecuting for fare evasion.

 

I'm not disputing the issue of the PFN, but I do think my appeals should have been accepted - details on my post.

 

I'm trying to find out if the Penalty Fares Regs apply to Southern.

 

Thanks for the good wishes!

[SRPO]

Yes, the regs do apply to Southern, however I cannot find a reference to PFNs being issued only to 'fare dodgers'.

There is an analogy made by the SRA (now defunct) of the requirements of a car park & buying a ticket to park being the same as having a ticket to travel on the railway.

[honestcitizen]

Yes, the regs do apply to Southern, however I cannot find a reference to PFNs being issued only to 'fare dodgers'.

There is an analogy made by the SRA (now defunct) of the requirements of a car park & buying a ticket to park being the same as having a ticket to travel on the railway.

 

As previously posted, I apologise for not making myself clear about the PFNs/fare dodgers. As previously posted, "If you read through this [the 2002 regs] you will see that concern was expressed about honest and fare-paying passengers eg 1.4 and 3.4 For example, 4.29 refers to people who have left their season ticket/photocard at home (and just to be clear, I'm not saying that this was exactly the case for my son)."

 

This exchange has been useful as I now know that I must make myself clearer about this issue when I get back to Passenger Focus.

 

Thank you for confirming that the regs do apply to Southern. Perhaps Southern employees and IPFAS should read them.

 

Many thanks - I will let you know how I get on with Passenger Focus.