Actually, on reflection, I'm not sure this point is valid. Just because they rail companies don't want to pay for errors made by the public does not entitle them to ignore the policy. The DVLA is not the same case because - as far as I know - there is not the same policy in place that they are ignoring (if that makes sense). I'm going to back off now - I've taken up enough of your time, and I need to move on! Thank you all for taking the time to reply to all my posts - it has helped clarify my thinking on the matter.

That's a good point. Actually if they made a charge for checking the system, I personally would be far happier with that - that would be a lot fairer. It would be better public relations too.

Thanks, Old-CodJa. I understand that the PNF was issued for a justifable reason in this and many other cases. The point I am trying to make is that there are situations in the policy (rather than "rules" - as has been pointed out to me) that would suggest that - as you say - factors become apparent afterwards to suggest that it might be overturned. But even if one writes a polite appeal letter (as I did on behalf of my son), the appeal can be rejected (as it was in my son's case). IPFAS does not seem to be following the policy.

4.29 in the 2002 rules on the sticky: "Season-ticket left at home. We expect allowances to be made for season-ticket holders who, for one reason or another, fail to carry their season-ticket or photocard. The system used by most operators is that a penalty fare notice will be issued, but no payment will be taken. On two occasions for each person in any 12-month period, the penalty fare will be cancelled when the passenger appeals. Some operators have procedures for cancelling penalty fares notices without having to go through the appeals process and we want to encourage this. The instructions given to authorised collectors must explain what the authorised collector and the season-ticket holder must do in this situation." And can I just point out that I wasn't suggesting writing an aggressive letter about this. Just pointing out the wording on the policy, that's all.

Sorry, I was only referring to the "rules" because CAGs sticky calls it the "regs" and I think others have referred to it as "rules". Actually the title of the document is "policy" so perhaps the title of the sticky should be amended? In any case, it seems that the policy is not being adhered to.

It does say "season ticket or photocard". Is there a difference between a photocard and a railcard then? Thanks honeybee, for pointing out how complicated this all is.

Sorry to bang on about this, but what about 4.29 in the 2002 rules on the sticky: "Season-ticket left at home. We expect allowances to be made for season-ticket holders who, for one reason or another, fail to carry their season-ticket or photocard. The system used by most operators is that a penalty fare notice will be issued, but no payment will be taken. On two occasions for each person in any 12-month period, the penalty fare will be cancelled when the passenger appeals. Some operators have procedures for cancelling penalty fares notices without having to go through the appeals process and we want to encourage this. The instructions given to authorised collectors must explain what the authorised collector and the season-ticket holder must do in this situation."

Please see my post about the Penalty Fare Regs 2002. This situation is covered in there.

As previously posted, I apologise for not making myself clear about the PFNs/fare dodgers. As previously posted, "If you read through this [the 2002 regs] you will see that concern was expressed about honest and fare-paying passengers eg 1.4 and 3.4 For example, 4.29 refers to people who have left their season ticket/photocard at home (and just to be clear, I'm not saying that this was exactly the case for my son)." This exchange has been useful as I now know that I must make myself clearer about this issue when I get back to Passenger Focus. Thank you for confirming that the regs do apply to Southern. Perhaps Southern employees and IPFAS should read them. Many thanks - I will let you know how I get on with Passenger Focus.

Do the Penalty Fares rules May 2002 apply to Southern?

As detailed in my post, I sent IPFAS proofs of purchase of my son's railcard plus the receipt for the tickets so I think Southern would have had a hard job prosecuting for fare evasion. I'm not disputing the issue of the PFN, but I do think my appeals should have been accepted - details on my post. I'm trying to find out if the Penalty Fares Regs apply to Southern. Thanks for the good wishes!

- Apologies - I didn't make myself clear. I see the Policy is actually on the CAG website on a sticky "Penalty Fares Regs". If you read through this, you will see that concern was expressed about honest and fare-paying passengers eg1.4 and 3.4 For example, 4.29 refers to people who have left their season ticket/photocard at home (and just to be clear, I'm not saying that this was exactly the case for my son). What I want to know is: do the Penalty Fares Regulations May 2002 apply to Southern?

I have paid the PFN. That is not the issue. My questions were: (1)I am going to ask Passenger Focus to pursue this (ie IPFAS did not follow the procedure for appeal in my son's particular case; if the SRA policy guidelines 2002 are still in force, then those who have paid should have the PFN quashed on appeal) Any tips? (2)I found the SRA policy guidelines 2002 on another site. This seems to make clear that PFNs should be against fare-dodgers, not honest passengers. Do these guidelines not apply anymore?

I came across the website while trying to find out about PFNs and have been very grateful for the info and posts. My son got a PFN at the station, having (we assume) left his railcard and tickets on the train, where they had been checked three times. The security person issued a PFN and he paid her £2. He was absolutely distraught at having lost his railcard which had cost me £65. The security person eventually told him not to worry and that everything would be all right and to appeal, outlining this on the PFN. I wish I had contacted CAG before appealing. Naively, I assumed that if I followed theinstructions on the PFN including the documentation ie email confirming his railcard and the receipt for the tickets that everything would indeed be all right. It wasn’t. I wrote back, asking them to reconsider. I pointed out (again) that we had already had to pay for part of the journey leg twice (my son and his friend were going to Heathrow and had been given bus tickets from Victoria instead of the requested underground tickets); that the name of our street had been misspelled on the PFN; about my son’s vulnerabilities (probably not wise to go into details on a public forum). IPFAS wrote back saying that no more correspondence would be entered into and if I believed that there had been a failure on their part to process the appeal correctly, to contact PassengerFocus. I did, but was told that IPFAS had misled me as they could not do so until I had heard the outcome from Southern. (Passenger Focus had forwarded my email to them and also my MP had written to Southern). I have now received this. Basically they say that I had not mentioned my son’s vulnerabilities – although I had - and that if I had IPFAS would haveasked for more information. From reading other posts, it seems that, as my son is nearly 18, there is a – small – chance of this ending up in a magistrates’ court . I can’t risk this for my son so I have paid the rest of the penalty fare (over £40). (Tip: go online. I tried phoning and was on hold for over 10 minutes before giving up.) My questions are these: (1) I am going to ask Passenger Focus to pursue this, even if this does end up being a further waste of time. Any tips? (2) I found the SRA policy guidelines 2002 on another site. This seems to make clear that PFNs should be against fare-dodgers, not honest passengers. Do these guidelines not apply anymore? (And yes, I do know my son may have been careless, but he is not a criminal. And yes, I do wish I had been able to take him and his friend to Heathrow myself.) Any advice would be much appreciated.