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    • in order for us to help you we require the following information:- Which Court have you received the claim from ? Canterbury Name of the Claimant ? Moneybarn No 1   How many defendant's  joint or self ? One Date of issue –  29/05/24 Acknowledged by 14/06/24  Defence by 29/06/24  Particulars of Claim PARTICULARS OF CLAIM 1.  By a Conditional Sale Agreement in writing made on 25th August 2022. Between the Claimant and Defendant, the Claimant let to the Defendant on Conditional Sale. A Ford Ranger 3.2 TDCi (200 P S) 4x4 Wildtrack Double Cab Pickup 3200cc (Sep.2015) Registration No, ******* Chassis number ***************** (“The Vehicle”).  A copy of the agreement is attached  2.  The price of the goods was £15,995.00. The Initial Rental was £8500.00.  The total charge for credit was £3575.;17 And the balance of £11,070.17 was payable by 59 equal consecutive monthly instalments of £187 63. payable on the 25th of each month. 3.  The following were expressed conditions of the set agreement, Clause 8: Our Right to End this Agreement  8.1   Subject to sending you the notice as required by law, any of the following events will entitle us to end this Agreement: 8.1.2  You fail to pay the advance payment (if any) or any of the payments as specified on the front page of this agreement or any other sum payable under this Agreement. 8.1.3 If any of the information you have given us before entering into this Agreement or during the term of this Agreement was false 8.1.4 We consider, acting reasonably, that the goods may be in jeopardy or that our rights in the goods may otherwise be prejudiced. 8.1.5 If you die 8.1.6 If a bankruptcy petition is presented against you; if you petition for your own bankruptcy, or make a live arrangement with your creditors or call a meeting of them. 8. 1.7 If in Scotland, you become insolvent or sequestration or a receiver, judicial factor or trustee to be appointed over any of your estate, or effects or suffer an arrestment, charge attachment or other diligence to be issued or levied on any of your estate or effects or suffer any exercise, or threatened exercise of landlords hype hypothec 8.1.8 If you are a partnership, you are dissolved 8.1.9 If the goods are destroyed, lost, stolen and/or treated by the insurer as a total loss in response to an insurance claim. 8.1.10 If we reasonably believe any payment made to us in respect of this Agreement is a proceed of crime. 8.1.11 If steps are taken by us to terminate any other agreement which you have entered into with us. Clause 9.  Effect of Us Terminating Agreement 9.1 If this Agreement terminates under clause 8 the following will apply 9.1.1 Subject to the rights given to you by law, you will no longer be entitled to possession of the goods and must return them to us to an address as we may reasonably specify, (removing or commencing the removal of any cherished plates) together with a V5 registration certificate, both sets of keys and a service record book. If you are unable or unwilling to return the goods to us then we shall collect the goods and we'll charge you in accordance with clause 10.3 9.1.2 We will be entitled to immediate payment from you for all payments and all other sums do under this agreement at the date of termination 9.1.3 We will sell the goods or public sale at the earliest opportunity once the goods are in a reasonable condition which includes a return of the items listed in clause 7.1.4 9.1.4 We will be entitled to immediate payment from you of the rest of the Total Amount Payable under this agreement less: ( a) A rebate for early settlement ias required by law which will be calculated and notified to you at the time of payment (b) The proceeds of sale of the goods (if any) after deduction of all costs associated with finding you and/or the goods, recovery, refurbishment and repair. Insurance, storage, sale, agents fees, cherished plate removal, replacement keys, costs associated with obtaining service history for the goods and in relation to obtaining a duplicate V5 registration certificate 4, The following are particulars required by Civil Procedure Rules. Rule 7.9 as set out in 7.1 and 7.2 of the associated Practice Direction entitled Hire Purchase Claims:- a)     The agreement is dated 25 August 2022. And is between Moneybarn No1 Limited  and xxxxxxxxx under agreement  number xxxxxx. b)    The claimant was one of the original parties to the agreement. c)    The agreement is regulated under the Consumer Credit Act 1974. d)    The goods claimed Ford Ranger 3.2 TDCi ( 200 PS) 4x4 Wildtrack Double Cab Pickup 3200 cc (Sep2015} Registration No ^^^^^^^ Chassis number ***************** e)     The total price of the goods £19570 f)     The paid up sum £1206 5 g)    The unpaid balance of the total price £7505 (to include charges) h)    A default notice was sent to the defendant on 20th February 2024 by First class post i)      The date when the right to demand delivery of the goods accrued 14 March 2024 j)      The amount if any claimed as an alternative to delivery of the goods 7505 22 include charges 5.  At the date of service of the notice the instalments were £562.89 in arrears. 6. By reason of the Termination of the Agreement by the notice, defendant became liable to pay the sum of £7502 7. The date of maturity the agreement is 24th August 2027. 8. Further or alternative by reasons of  the Defendant breaches of the agreement by failing to pay the said instalments, the Defendant evinced an intention no longer to be bound by the Agreement and repudiated it by the said Notice the claimant accepted that repudiation 9. By reason of such repudiation the claimant has suffered loss and damage. Total amount payable £19570 Less sum paid or in arrears by the date of repudiation £12064 97 Balance £7505 (to include charges.) ( The claimant will give credit if necessary for the value of the vehicle if recovered.)  The claimant therefore claims 1.    An order for delivery up of the vehicle 2.    The MoneyClaim to be adjourned generally with liberty to restore,  Upon restoration of the MoneyClaim following return or loss of the vehicle. the Claimant will ensure the pre action protocol for debt claims is followed. 3.    Pursuant to s 90 (1)  of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. An order that the Claimant and/or its agents may enter any premises in which the vehicle is situated in order to recover the vehicle should it not be returned by the Defendant 4.    further or alternatively damages 5.    costs Statement of truth The Claimant believes that the facts stated in these Particulars of Claim are true. The Claimant understands that the proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes or causes to be made a false statement in the document for verified by statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth. I am duly Authorised by the Claimant to sign these Particulars of Claim signed Dated 17th of April 2024  What is the total value of the claim? 7502   Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) ? No   Never heard of this   Have you changed your address since the time at which the debt referred to in the claim was allegedly incurred? No   Did you inform the claimant of your change of address? n/a Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account? No   When did you enter into the original agreement before or after April 2007 ? After  Do you recall how you entered into the agreement...On line /In branch/By post ? In a garage  Is the debt showing on your credit reference files (Experian/Equifax /Etc...) ? Yes  Has the claim been issued by the original creditor or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. Original Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? n/a   Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor? They said sent but nor received   Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Sums in Arrears”  or " Notice of Arrears "– at least once a year ? None seen   Why did you cease payments? Still Paying,   What was the date of your last payment? Yesterday  31st May 2024   Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved? No   Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor and make any attempt to enter into a debt management plan? Yes on 12 Feb 2024   What you need to do now.   Can't scan, will do via another means as you cant have jpg  
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h197 -v- Cabot (ex Egg ) Now in litigation help please.


h197
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I think you might need to reword your CPR18.

 

I will give it some thought..

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...thought it was Ok as CPR18 is where I can ask questions, but cannot ask for data...? Please do come back with your comments, it would be much appreciated!

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They have to be asked in a specific way.. I will pop up some thoughts tomorrow :)

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Hi h:)

 

having thought about this overnight, I suspect my comments/suggestions are purely cosmetic/nitpicking !

 

Point 3: On what date did Cabot (UK) assume ownership of the disputed account.

 

Point 5: I think you need to include point 7 at this point as follows:

 

Point 5: Was a Default Notice issued pursuant to section 87 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (as amended) and if so :

 

a] What was the date of issue

b] What was the amount claimed

c] Did the amount claimed on the DN incorporate any penalty charges and in what sum

d] Did the Default Notice contain the Office of Fair Trading fact sheet as required by paragraph 10(a) of Schedule 2 of the Regulations

e] Was the issuance of the Defalt Notice, noted in the communication log.

f] What class of postal service used eg 1st, 2nd or UK mail.

 

 

Did they ever serve the Notice of Sums in arrears as shown below : If not, then I guess you could ask if they had ever issued those.

 

 

Notice of sums in arrears.

 

Pursuant to s86 (A-C) Consumer Credit Act 1974 there is a duty to serve notice of sums in arrears. The Claimant has not served such notices nor has it pleaded such, therefore the Defendant avers that by virtue of s86D Consumer Credit Act 1974 the Claimant cannot enforce the agreement as matters stand. For the avoidance of doubt the notice referred to within this paragraph are in addition to the Default notice not in place of.

Furthermore no OFT arrears sheet as required by s86©(3) Consumer Credit Act 1974 has been served.

By virtue of the failures outlined in Para 14 & 15 above the Claimant is not entitled pursuant to s86D (4) Consumer Credit Act 1974 to levy any interest from the point of the failure to serve the aforesaid notice of sums in arrears nor is the Claimant entitled to levy any default charges during the period of non compliance.

 

 

 

Edited by citizenB

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For point 5: Default notice - I think you need to know what method of post service was used as well, because that would deduct from any remedy period of 14 days.

 

If it was dated on a weekend date - that would also deduct from the remedy period of 14 days.

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Well citizenB, you finished late last night and looks like you were up first thing this morning, so when do you sleep...? Not that I am moaning in any way mind you, as I have read your comments and am extremely thankful for taking the time to go through my mess!!

 

I will adjust to include changes and will repost later today. Many thanks

 

PS One thought though please; some of the extra questions raised here, for example "e] Was the issuance of the Defalt Notice, noted in the communication log" are already answered, as they have previously sent me copies of their logs (though I would argue 'amended' in their favour, but that is another story!). Do I need to add them anyway, or is such repetition seen badly in the case / court even?

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Moreover, I thought that LoP 1025 requires registered, or signed for delivery ONLY, ie if not signed for as collected / standard post used, then it has not been served thus assignment is not yet Absolute...? Is my logic failing here perhaps?

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Hi H,

Sorry to butt in. Make sure you have checked all the account numbers that Cabot have on their paperwork. They made a right botch up of mine with the wrong account number on their Reconstituted Assignment and on other demand letters they had sent me. I think that helped swing things in my favour, so double check that everything matches coz they are a bit dippit with that sort of thing. Also make sure you dont have a double entry on your Credit files and that the dates match on that, Cabot had that they bought my account in the June but had started reporting on it in May. Every little helps as they say. The advise you get on the forum from those in the know is phenomonal and i really hope you kick em into touch.

 

Delilah

Edited by delilahsahb
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Well citizenB, you finished late last night and looks like you were up first thing this morning, so when do you sleep...? Not that I am moaning in any way mind you, as I have read your comments and am extremely thankful for taking the time to go through my mess!!

 

I will adjust to include changes and will repost later today. Many thanks

 

PS One thought though please; some of the extra questions raised here, for example "e] Was the issuance of the Defalt Notice, noted in the communication log" are already answered, as they have previously sent me copies of their logs (though I would argue 'amended' in their favour, but that is another story!). Do I need to add them anyway, or is such repetition seen badly in the case / court even?

 

Sleep..!! is that a new hobby :lol:

 

If they have already responded to a question by another route.. then leave it off the CPR18 - You dont want to be seen to be labouring a point if it has already been answered.. so leave anything off that has been sorted already :)

 

 

 

Moreover, I thought that LoP 1025 requires registered, or signed for delivery ONLY, ie if not signed for as collected / standard post used, then it has not been served thus assignment is not yet Absolute...? Is my logic failing here perhaps?

 

I think there has been much debate on this point - the only way this argument will hold water is if the Assignment was never acknowledged or claimed by the defendant to have been received. It is my understanding that an assignment only becomes complete once the debtor has been advised of it.

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3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Ah! Im so glad they havent let me down with their inefficiency, they must be sooo proud of their admin staff. :-)

 

 

Well they get bonuses.. So I guess they must be :lol:

 

It does make you wonder when ineffiiciency became a job requirement :???:

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

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2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Thanks for the comments citizenB, though my point is not on whether I have received an assignment or not, it is more to the letter / detail of the Law.

 

As such, I have not rejected having ever received some / a Notice of Assignment. Even if I had denied receipt, they have since sent other / copies of it and as my undertsanding is that this would be enough for the Court to prove receipt (even though retrospectively), I am simply not overly worried on this point.

 

My point is on the detail of the Law and how LoP 1925 specifies the type of delivery required for Absolute assignment. They imaginatively claim to have an 'Equitable assignment under s136' which as I understand does not exist. It is either Absolute (under s136), or Equitable with the already many times discussed consequences.

 

Now if their assignmet is Equitable, they have NO right to take me to Court, mark my Credit File, so blah, blah. If the asignment was Absolute (under s136), then they must communicate it in a predefined manner (ie reg post as per s196 within) or it remains a simple Equitable assignment until that time. So, again they cannot take me to Court, mark my file, yadah, yadah...

 

Am I completely wrong...comments please?

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TBH, this question is a little outside of my knowledge.

 

All I can say is that had you denied receiving one then it is likely you could have brought all the LP1925 into play regarding registered/recorded post.

 

I would be a little shy of muddying the water with arguments that are slightly irrelevant!

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5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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...hmm, I think I would like to rephrase if I may; I did deny it at the beginning, and that was because all I had ever seen was the welcome letter. They have since replied with various versions of what they say was what was sent to me, so I am now (I think rightly) questioning when/how, ie please prove...?

 

I hope we are talking 'the same line of thought' here and that I am not messing up big time...? And I am only worried about possibly messing up, because I am still unsure at what point I can address the Court with ALL the details I wish to submit, rather than trying to get bits and bobs into space restricted forms...? Or does that perhaps only happen while AT the Court?

 

Thanks once again

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You should have the opportunity to submit a Witness statement to arrive at the court, a minimum of 7 days, prior to any hearing.

 

If you have never acknowledged receipt of a Notice of Assignment, then of course you should be asking how it was sent and the recorded/registered point comes in play.

 

I will confirm that with andyorch for you.

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Hi

Just a quick point, Cabot claimed in my case that they didn't always record sending of DNs etc on client notes!!

I asked about staff training, and there isn't any??

This was about 2 years ago,,

Cups

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Hi

Just a quick point, Cabot claimed in my case that they didn't always record sending of DNs etc on client notes!!

I asked about staff training, and there isn't any??

This was about 2 years ago,,

Cups

 

 

Then how can they state they HAVE sent one ?

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In most cases they dont have to, or retain a hard copy, the DJ would be happy to go along with " on the balance of probabilities " not all but most !!! But at the very least surley they must produce a screen shot that one was triggered.

 

Andy

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...so, though LoP 1025 asks for proof of postage, judges can choose to ignore that, or does this need to be pointed out for them to take into account? Else what is the law for, if the likes of Cabot are allowed to pick and choose what they wish to follow...?

 

Just for my sanity here please can someone reply to my post #208 above? Is the logic behind it flawed based on Andy's comments in #220?

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In most cases they dont have to, or retain a hard copy, the DJ would be happy to go along with " on the balance of probabilities " not all but most !!! But at the very least surley they must produce a screen shot that one was triggered.

 

Andy

 

Without at least an entry in the database the most they could say is that they would "normally" issue a default notice, or that the system will not let them advance with the debt without a DN being issued, they cannot give a definitive answer or rather shouldnt. Any other errors in paperwork or missed documentation would be a bonus and go to show unreliability in any statement of "normal processes" taking place imho.

 

S.

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...so, though LoP 1025 asks for proof of postage, judges can choose to ignore that, or does this need to be pointed out for them to take into account? Else what is the law for, if the likes of Cabot are allowed to pick and choose what they wish to follow...?

 

Just for my sanity here please can someone reply to my post #208 above? Is the logic behind it flawed based on Andy's comments in #220?

 

Proof in small claims is based on probabilities not certainties I'm afraid... also proof of postage could just be a record in the database that a letter was sent, proof of receipt is something else entirely and the point is moot if you've admitted you received the notice of acknowledgement, THAT being the only thing the LoP is really concerned with, not the procedure you receive it as such.

 

S.

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OK, I never received a Notice of assignment from Cabot, or Egg, though they are saying that the Welcome letter was the one, all encompassing document doing it all. So I have asked when the Notice of Assignment was sent and how and they have 'manufactured' (in my opinion to say the least) some documents that claim to be Notice(s) of Assignment as they supposedly were sent to me by both them and Egg!!! Never happened and that is why I am still questioning this poiint!

 

Moreover, if I am understanding the LoP correctly, until a Notice of Assignment is correctly served (ie, proof of postage, prescribed terms included, etc) the Assignment cannot be Absolute and is Equitable in the best. I understand that some DJ's will accept that a notice (of whatever kind) was sent as part of the docs going back and forth between us, though if this is acceptable it would be after their claim being raised and after they maked my Credit History file ith a default. Am I wrong assuming all this is not to the letter of the Law and a Court is bound by following exactly that...the letter of the Law?

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Lets assume that they convince the DJ that the NoA was served correctly and valid.

 

 

Section 82 Consumer Credit Act 1974 the new European Union Directive Assignment of Rights:

 

16. ASSIGNMENT OF RIGHTS

 

16.1 Where any rights of a creditor under a consumer credit agreement (for example the right to be repaid the money) are sold or transferred to a third party, notice of that assignment must be given to the borrower as soon as reasonably possible, except in the circumstances described below. This requirement applies to all regulated consumer credit agreements other than agreements secured on land. This requirement is in new section 82A of the CCA43.

 

 

16.2 It is the responsibility of the assignee (the creditor acquiring the rights) to ensure that notice is given. However, he does not have to give notice himself, but can agree with the assignor (the creditor assigning the rights) that the assignor will give notice instead, depending on what is more sensible in the circumstances. It is important, however, that notice is given as soon as reasonably possible and in a way that is clearly understandable by the borrower.

 

 

16.3 Notice does not have to be given where arrangements for servicing the credit are unchanged as far as the borrower is concerned. For example, if Creditor A sells his rights under a credit agreement to Creditor B but Creditor A still collects the borrower’s repayments in the same way and is the only point of contact for the borrower on matters regarding the agreement, notice does not have to be given.

 

 

16.4 Where notice has not been given, and arrangements for servicing the credit do subsequently change, the borrower must be informed of the assignment on or before the date that change happens. Again, this must be readily comprehensible to the borrower.

 

 

16.5 The definition of "creditor" in section 189 of the CCA applies to this new requirement on assignment of rights. This means that when an assignee purchases debts (or otherwise acquires rights under a credit agreement) it also acquires certain obligations to the borrower including the duty to comply with CCA requirements (such as the rules on statements and notices and other post-contractual information). The assignee becomes the creditor under the agreement. This ensures that essential consumer protections under the CCA cannot be circumvented by assigning the debt to a third party."

 

 

 

Notice of Assignment.

terms and conditions of the New Agreement

Consecutive monthly Statements of Account from the date of assignment.

Notice of Arrears.

Default Notice.

Letter of Impending legal action.

Compliance with CPR

Summons.

 

 

Just an angle rather than basing your defence on none receipt.

 

Andy

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