parking fines deducted from wages without prior warning or knowledge 'caught by camera offences'

[screwed again]

Has any one else had the problem of employers deducting parking fines from there salaries without prior notice? my case cant be unique,just got my pay slip and enclosed was a copy of the penalty notice that my company had the good grace to pay on my behalf then deduct £60.00 from my pay,all without me having any prior knowledge of the ticket.....................but heres the rub!!! once the fine has been paid it in effect removes my right to appeal,AS IS THE CASE WITH ALL LONDON BOROUGH COUNCILS,sort of if you pay then you were guilty situation.

This has happened three times in the past six months and although i have till now quite politely asked my employer to inform me of any fines i may incur in the company vehicle that i wouldnt be aware of they continuely fail to do so.working in London means tickets are something of an occupational hazard and of the 20 or so tickets issued by traffic wardens i have successfully appealed 12,but when caught via a camera i have no pre warning/notice that i have committed an offence (not difficult in London) so the notice is then sent directly to my employer and the first i hear of it is when i see the deduction from my wages,i have explained the 'if you pay the fine i cant appeal bit' to my employer only to be told why appeal you wont get anywhere,did try to tell them that in paying the fine without informing me that i'd incurred one they were in effect removing my right to appeal ,But they state as they own the vehicles and that my contract states fines that remain unpaid will be deducted they are acting within employment law..............however how can i pay a fine or appeal a fine i dont know i,ve incurred unless they (my employer) informs me,any one else had this problem?

Just want to add that i accept that i do have to pay PCN thats not an issue,However my frusration is that i feel i shoudnt have my right to appeal removed/respected.

Edited July 30, 2011 by screwed again

[Jamberson]

Your issue is solely with your employer. Check the exact terms of your contract - that's what both sides are bound by.

 

Your employer will not know about a PCN until an NTO is issued to them - for which they, as the owner, are liable rather than you as the driver. Therefore, you don't have a right of appeal at that point, in any case.

[crem]

Your employer will not know about a PCN until an NTO is issued to them - for which they, as the owner, are liable rather than you as the driver. Therefore, you don't have a right of appeal at that point, in any case.

 

In the example the OP is quoting it will be a section 10 PCN/NtO so as I understand it, there is a right of appeal at this stage as it obviously is the first the recipient knows about it, whether they were the driver/RK or not.

[screwed again]

seems very unfair,and agree that its should just be a case of my employer and me communicating,i,m sure that if the fine was coming out of his pocket he wont be so hasty to pay but as he can charge the fine to me he simply doesnt care.

[screwed again]

just thought i'd add the exact wording of my contract relating to this issue................you will be responsible for any fines incurred.if these sums remain unpaid the appropiate deductions will be made from your pay in such circumstances.

[Andy77799]

unless they are paying fine, charging you then appealing, sometimes winning and gaining £60

 

Just a thought/conspiracy theory!

[Conniff]

If you are part of any union, then you should contact them for advice.

 

I assume this is deliveries. You will have to tell your company that you cannot deliver to any address that will incure a fine unless they pay it.

[screwed again]

dont think they are pocketing the cash lol,but................

and no not delivering i am a mantenance technician and rarely attend the same address.wish i could consult a union but dont think that option is open to me but thanks anyway.

Edited July 30, 2011 by screwed again

[Conniff]

You still can't just leave it like this. If you are being sent by a company to an address that is likely to get a parking ticket, then they should pay.

 

There are unions for all occupations and you have a lawful right to belong to one.

[screwed again]

You still can't just leave it like this. If you are being sent by a company to an address that is likely to get a parking ticket, then they should pay.

 

There are unions for all occupations and you have a lawful right to belong to one.

 

Appreciate the sentiment but as for union representation i think i'd want the support of the other employees,and the entire culture of this company isnt geared to it nor are the staff,and my co-workers wouldnt support me,As is the case in this trade in general (locksmith/access control) they would be to worried about the implications for them.As for where we are sent to of its not really relevent as there isnt an intention from (the employer) to purposely get you a pcn or other fine, But being London even if you take as much care as is neccessary its very,very easy to slip up as there are cameras absolutely everywhere.Still thats a whole other subject.I would just want my employer to show the decency to duely inform me or any of the staff when these caught by camera incidents occur and give us a prior warning so we can then take the steps necessary to follow up the fine,its just about common curteousy and respect,of which he (the owner) has none.

[crem]

surely the key element (no pun intended on your job ) is that your contract states "fines remain unpaid..." for it to remain unpaid, there must be some prior stage at which time you had teh option to pay, but didn't. Therefore, it remained unpaid.

 

As these are camera fines, which generate a combines PCN and NtO and send it straight to the RK, your employer should appreciate this does not fall under that contract item as it has not yet remained unpaid until you either accept it or challenge it.

[green_and_mean]

In the example the OP is quoting it will be a section 10 PCN/NtO so as I understand it, there is a right of appeal at this stage as it obviously is the first the recipient knows about it, whether they were the driver/RK or not.

 

There is no right of appeal to a cctv PCN for the driver the registered keeper is liable and only they may make representations, if the owner wants to pay that is their choice. This matter is a purely contractual issue regarding his terms of employment and has little to do with parking as such. Looking at it from the keepers point of view if they let the employees contest the PCNs and lose then their liability doubles.

[dadtaxi]

surely the key element (no pun intended on your job ) is that your contract states "fines remain unpaid..." for it to remain unpaid, there must be some prior stage at which time you had teh option to pay, but didn't. Therefore, it remained unpaid.

 

As these are camera fines, which generate a combines PCN and NtO and send it straight to the RK, your employer should appreciate this does not fall under that contract item as it has not yet remained unpaid until you either accept it or challenge it.

 

Just to emphasise--- Deducting from your pay is illegal without consent ( barring special cases - not relavent in this case) , which is what the above process is meant to catch. -- Sounds like your employer is just being lazy -after all you are 'paying' so no need to spend any more time on it than necessary!!. ----I don’t know what the size of your business is but a call or visit to your Human Recourses/Pay office/or equivalent seems to be your next stage -----from http://www.industrialrelations.nsw.gov.au/Employers/Paying_staff/Pay_deductions.html---- i quote 'An employee's pay must be made in full. An employer may only deduct money from an employee's pay if agreed in writing by the employee and where the deductions are for the benefit of the employee. Awards and agreements may also authorise an employer to take money from an employee's pay.' ----So unless you have in the past agreed with your employer to pay fines without informing you , time to get some printouts from the web and get 'busy with your boss'.

Edited July 31, 2011 by dadtaxi

[screwed again]

There is no right of appeal to a cctv PCN for the driver the registered keeper is liable and only they may make representations, if the owner wants to pay that is their choice. This matter is a purely contractual issue regarding his terms of employment and has little to do with parking as such. Looking at it from the keepers point of view if they let the employees contest the PCNs and lose then their liability doubles.

 

As i have previously mentioned as he is the R.K. of the vehicles ultimately he is responsible for the fines and i understand his position,and yes its true that some (not all) local councils will only accept representation from the R.K. (IF YOU SEND AN APPEAL ON COMPANY HEADED PAPER THEY WILL ACKNOWLEDGE THE APPEAL AS I HAVE DONE SO,SUCCESSFULLY).

Can i also say that re: the point that as he is R.K and doubles his liabilty if he permits employees to appeal that we are paid monthly and work a month in hand,and two months in hand on overtime,So as any penalties are sent to his office its very unlikely that a scenario could arise where he is left having to pay a fine without being able to deduct that fine from an employees salary

[dadtaxi]

There is no right of appeal to a cctv PCN for the driver the registered keeper is liable and only they may make representations, if the owner wants to pay that is their choice. This matter is a purely contractual issue regarding his terms of employment and has little to do with parking as such. Looking at it from the keepers point of view if they let the employees contest the PCNs and lose then their liability doubles.

 

Not quite following you there. I would agree with you if the Employer is the one paying, but the employee has stated repeatidly that the fine is being taken from his wages ( the whole point of this post) , therefore there is no liability from the Employer whether it doubles or not

[screwed again]

Not convinced that pay cannot be deducted without consent as according to on-line solicitor they can in this instance.however if you have any proof this cant be done i would greatly appreciate it.and thanks for the link about which deductions cannot be made, as although it doesnt state on that site about parking fines specifically it does say that cost of mobile phones calls on company phones cannot be taken without prior consent and he has done this to me and other employees i believe.

Have decided to speak to him directly on monday,would appreciate any advice from people on how to approach it ?.

[Conniff]

Not quite following you there. I would agree with you if the Employer is the one paying, but the employee has stated repeatidly that the fine is being taken from his wages ( the whole point of this post) , therefore there is no liability from the Employer whether it doubles or not

 

Agree there, to appeal or not should be the choice of the person ultimately paying the fine, not the employer to take matters into their own hands and prejudge.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Conniff

[screwed again]

I think this post is saying that as the R.K is ultimately responsible for all fines relating to his vehicles therefore in theory should an employee incur a fine then leave the job the R.K. then is liable for the fine and has the hassle of chasing the now ex-employee for reimbursment,however if you read my reply to that post you will see that scenario is very unlikely due to our pay struture.hope that helps.

[dadtaxi]

Quote ' according to on-line solicitor they can in this instance'. Love to know which point of law they are relying on cos everything on various websites says different, including the .guv site above. --- How to approach? If hes a reasonable guy just ask him why -If youre paying anyway- the ticket cant be passes onto you to deal with? Its a reasonable question which should get a reasonable answer. If its gone past this ( as i assume from the above ) then try asking for the company statment on this policy in writing, --mabye with just a hint that it will be passed to your soliciter. Having to write it down rather than a Matey chat might convince them to 'revisit' their policy.

[Conniff]

But is it an unauthorised deduction as it is the op terms of employment.

 

As the main point of the thread is being given notice of the ticket, there is always the senario that SA could commit 'all' of his pay for a given month only to find on payday that he is £60 short or even more if a couple of tickets have been earned, what does he do then, there is a bill that can't be paid.

 

I do think that he has the right of notification before the ticket is paid.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Conniff

[dadtaxi]

sorry to cross post but quote 'has the hassle of chasing the now ex-employee for reimbursment' doesnt make it legal to deduct from wages, Just to spare him a little hassle still requires your prior concent

[screwed again]

Yes have had the conversation where i have asked for any and all fines to be forwarded without delay as i will pay them myself,as i do with traffic warden parking tickets but clearly to no avail,as for the on-line solictor as it states in my contract that all parking fines are my responsibilty and unpaid sums will be deducted accordingly,thats there opinion.at best i think this is a very grey area at worst my employer just finds it easy to do as he pleases with little or no recourse........prob not relevent but a more anal,controling spoilt little child of a man you could not wish to meet,how he hasnt been punched soundly in the mouth by now is beyond me.........said without bias lol.

[green_and_mean]

Not quite following you there. I would agree with you if the Employer is the one paying, but the employee has stated repeatidly that the fine is being taken from his wages ( the whole point of this post) , therefore there is no liability from the Employer whether it doubles or not

 

I could get a job there rack up dozens of PCNs and then demand to take them all the way to adjudication then leave before in the months leading up to hearing leaving the employer out of pocket. I agree though if the PCN is 100% winnable such as the vehicle was loading but the driver was away during the observation period, it does seen unfair not to get it cancelled rather than penalise the employee.

[Conniff]

how he hasnt been punched soundly in the mouth by now is beyond me.........

 

See if you can find your self another job of go self employed and then you can be the one to do it.

 

Just as an aside, this is his van, do you take it home night times and can you use it for personal use ??

[screwed again]

actually would prefer to take him down a peg or two in the legal sense as to hit him that way would have a much more desired effect,will check with employment law re deductions again