Ingeus

[beezley]

I am not blaming anybody, but the simple truth is in the capitalist ideology, supply and demand.

 

There is an oversupply of labour so employers would get staff anyway, so net gain is zero.

 

I do however object to people pontificating and trying to justify a useless exercise in wasting tax payers money.

 

If a bank teller came on here justifying futures, swaps, derivatives in a wall of text disguised as doing me a favour, then yes I would give them a reality check.

[Bullpoofilter]

Beezley, like I said, I don't expect to be on everyone's Christmas card list.

 

However, I have no issues whatsoever with the work I did whilst at Ingeus. I sleep very well indeed knowing that of those I did help that it was appreciated and made a difference to them.

[beezley]

That is good, at least you tried

[Bakatcha]

Bakatcha, I have to ask.

 

Why do you refer to your fellow forum members as stock? I get the reference to livestock but how is it helpful? How does someone already feeling brow beaten enough to come online and seek help to see that one of their peers refers to them as stock feel?

Well I cannot claim to have invented the use of the word "stock" to describe the WP victim. I get the word from Lord Freud - one of the architects and a key proponent of the WP. My use of the term is intentionally ironic as it is an accurate reflection of how those running WP businesses look upon those "consigned" to them. "Consigned" is another WP word which is very revealing about the attitudes - a new batch or intake of victims comes with a consignment notice and, of course payment in the form of the attachment fees.

Actually "stock" describes very accurately the role of the WP victim. We are not a party to the contract which is between the DWP and the provider. We have no say in whether we participate. We have no choice of provider. We are the stuff of which profit is to be made. I think "stock" is a far more accurate description than "customer" or "client" - don't you?

As for brow beating. I am speechless (almost). That a WP adviser, albeit an ex one, should imply that I browbeat readers is Kafkaesque! If you want to see "browbeating" I suggest you accompany me to the offices of A4greed where routine haranguing of the unfortunate stock seems to be regarded as an acceptable management technique.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

Well I cannot claim to have invented the use of the word "stock" to describe the WP victim. I get the word from Lord Freud - one of the architects and a key proponent of the WP. My use of the term is intentionally ironic as it is an accurate reflection of how those running WP businesses look upon those "consigned" to them. "Consigned" is another WP word which is very revealing about the attitudes - a new batch or intake of victims comes with a consignment notice and, of course payment in the form of the attachment fees.

Actually "stock" describes very accurately the role of the WP victim. We are not a party to the contract which is between the DWP and the provider. We have no say in whether we participate. We have no choice of provider. We are the stuff of which profit is to be made. I think "stock" is a far more accurate description than "customer" or "client" - don't you?

As for brow beating. I am speechless (almost). That a WP adviser, albeit an ex one, should imply that I browbeat readers is Kafkaesque! If you want to see "browbeating" I suggest you accompany me to the offices of A4greed where routine haranguing of the unfortunate stock seems to be regarded as an acceptable management technique.

I think that the term "Stock" more accurately describes the status of plebs who, for whatever reason, decide to seek employment within the Welfare To Work Sector rather than Third Sector, Public Sector or Wealth Creating Sector of the economy. Or perhaps they do make some attempt, but find that they are not sufficiently qualified, and otherwise accept a job within the Welfare To Work Sector (either Primes or Subcontractors) rather than re-educate themselves to get a more robust and sustainable job.

 

The pay for the Clerks may be decent - I have seen salary ranges of £19K-£25K within adverts - and the rationale for offering such a high salary for mediocre work is the same as offering high pay for working in a lap dancing club - the pimps need to attract a high volume of applicants simply to deal with the churn rate. If they could get a job in a Call Centre, or as attendants within a Public Convenience, they would do so.

 

Of course, from the candidates perspective, whereas they have a relationship with the DWP/JCP through the Job Seekers Agreement, which only remains active insofar as the candidate remains unemployed, a more accurate term to describe the relationship between candidate and Welfare To Work Sector is that of "Conscript" - the term Customer or Client does not apply as previously stated.

[debt4get]

the work programme, was set up by this govt for the simple distribution of wealth, remove payments from the poorest in society and give to the richest. the fallacy being fed to the general public is that in essence the british working man/woman is 'lazy, feckless, and scroungers' and without the 'stick' of the w2w programme the 'plebs' will continue to sit idly by on their backsides whilst watching their 50 inch plasma, playing on their xbox and posting on facebook...by the way all useful multitasking activities!!... anyone with an ounce of intelligence is quite capable of job hunting on their own backs, without the intervention of these so called providers, who from the govts own figures which they have carefully tried to keep from publishing, is that the industry is itself failing...with less than 3% of 'clients' being found sustainable employment, yet people who are 'forced' to attend this farce find that they are being sanctioned, that is having any monetary support withdrawn because they failed to attend an appointment or stood up for their rights. whilst i applaud the way you have gone about 'helping' people into employment, can you honestly say hand on heart, that these people you helped couldnt/or wouldnt get a job but for you? the only 'barriers' to work, is simply one thing, lack of jobs and opportunities, in the meantime this govt will continue to pour millions into the pocket of a few, whilst demonizing the poorer in society. personally i have a job, i work hard, and to be honest, if i had to pay more tax to help the poorer in this country then that is a price i am prepared to pay, because you never know one day you may have to walk in their shoes, life has a funny way of biting back

[Bullpoofilter]

Rebecca, I'm sorry. I'm sorry that you feel that referring to anyone as a pleb is an acceptable way of adding weight to your point.

 

Have a happy new year.

[debt4get]

it wasnt rebecca it was me that used the word 'pleb' as referred to by our 'masters' in govt at the moment, I am more than happy to be known as one of 'plebs' of this country...

[Chester6]

I'd rather work for the parasites then be unemployed and keep being a victim of these dumb schemes

Being skint and subject to the whims of the jobcentre, w2w and ian smith is depressing and tiring

[debt4get]

tbh i would rather claim UB than work for a w2w company....i could not subject anyone with threats to remove their money on my whim, or the pathetic rules that this odious govt and industry have come up with....

[osdset]

Responding to Bullpoofilter's post:

 

Which takes me on to the next point. There's clearly a feeling that Work Programme providers only chase what are termed as low-grade jobs. Well, here's the uncomfortable bit - what might constitute a 'low grade' role for you may be out of the reach of someone else. Equally, what might be an ideal job for you might be so far out of touch for someone else that they'd never consider it.

So where does a provider focus? On the roles that are going to have the most impact for the most people

 

The new proposals under Universal Credit will mean that even those in NMW jobs will have to demonstrate that they are forever seeking better paid employment or longer hours to qualify for any HB/CT credits, the way things are shaping up even the 'low grade' jobs will not be a viable proposition, what will the WP do then?

The obligatory better off calculation will start to look very sick indeed, faced with ruin on the minimum wage zero hour route or staying on benefits, my money's on claimants desperately clinging on to the benefit system just to survive.

 

When moving into work from JSA there are several helping hands available, albeit they're not spectacular but rent run-ons, back to work credit etc can be dependant upon a continous claim in excess of 6 months. Now, if you've had a break in your claim in the last 6 months then it makes no diffence - a break being another job / failing to sign / sanctions

 

Soon to be phased out, yet another helping hand back into work being removed by this caring sharing government.

Edited January 1, 2013 by osdset

[estellyn]

I have a question, bullpoofilter, with regards to sanctions. What guidance are advisers given on referring people for sanctions? Are there mandatory things that must be referred? Are there any targets to hit? - so for instance, if an adviser wasn't referring anyone for sanctions, would they get pulled aside for a 'chat'. How much of it is at the individual adviser's discretion?

[Bullpoofilter]

I have a question, bullpoofilter, with regards to sanctions. What guidance are advisers given on referring people for sanctions? Are there mandatory things that must be referred? Are there any targets to hit? - so for instance, if an adviser wasn't referring anyone for sanctions, would they get pulled aside for a 'chat'. How much of it is at the individual adviser's discretion?

 

 

As of late September we were issued guidance that every missed appointment or failure to complete a mandatory action should be submitted to the decision makers. This was explained to us as something that had been highlighted during audit by the DWP as not being up for negotiation and a contractual obligation.

 

The truth in my experience was a little different. Bearing in mind that the advisors role is to 'raise a doubt' and present the facts to the decision makers at the DWP. The feeling in my office was that as the paperwork involved in doing it was so time consuming and in reality it did little to help anyone that we would spend our time working with people who were engaging with us. No manager I met would express any concern over someone concentrating on someone likely to have a positive result rather than spending 20 minutes printing out details of missed appointments and attendance records.

 

After all, there's no financial incentives to sanction someone but there are if someone else gets into a job.

 

So, were there targets for raising doubts? No. The targets in the role were related to the number of jobs started and the sustainability of those at 3 and 6 months.

 

Like I said no one ever got the 'chat' for not doing them. The most common types of sanctions we saw were related to failure to sign / failure to apply for a matched vacancy and insufficient job search activities recorded on the diary presented at sign on or failure to comply with all of the agreed tasks on the job seekers agreement.

[estellyn]

As of late September we were issued guidance that every missed appointment or failure to complete a mandatory action should be submitted to the decision makers. This was explained to us as something that had been highlighted during audit by the DWP as not being up for negotiation and a contractual obligation.

 

The truth in my experience was a little different. Bearing in mind that the advisors role is to 'raise a doubt' and present the facts to the decision makers at the DWP. The feeling in my office was that as the paperwork involved in doing it was so time consuming and in reality it did little to help anyone that we would spend our time working with people who were engaging with us. No manager I met would express any concern over someone concentrating on someone likely to have a positive result rather than spending 20 minutes printing out details of missed appointments and attendance records.

 

After all, there's no financial incentives to sanction someone but there are if someone else gets into a job.

 

So, were there targets for raising doubts? No. The targets in the role were related to the number of jobs started and the sustainability of those at 3 and 6 months.

 

Like I said no one ever got the 'chat' for not doing them. The most common types of sanctions we saw were related to failure to sign / failure to apply for a matched vacancy and insufficient job search activities recorded on the diary presented at sign on or failure to comply with all of the agreed tasks on the job seekers agreement.

 

Thanks for replying. With matched vacancies and jobseeking actvities, were these also automatically referred, or was there discretion? So if someone explained they didn't apply for a vacancy for a good reason, would this still be referred or could discretion be used by advisers?

[debt4get]

as i said, no amount of money could tempt me into doing a job where i was responsible for denying anyone their right to benefits....so someone doesnt apply for a job? so what? it isn't exactly the crime of the century...now bankrupting the country and then paying out huge bonuses to the clowns that actually did it..now that is a crime...but hey we are all in this together...just some of us are more in 'it' than others...

[Bullpoofilter]

Hi, these were not ones that we had any part in and were often brought to our attention by people who had been sanctioned by the DWP / JCP directly.

 

Like I said it was very rare indeed that we would raise doubts. Discretion played a huge part as did the realisation that once the working relationship would be so damaged by a sanction that it was rarely used.

 

I'd often explain the importance of meeting the criteria laid down by jcp on the JSAg. If you're given a matched job to apply for then for heavens sake, apply for it. If you don't meet the criteria then you won't get through the initial paper sift. Then explain that to your jcp advisor so that you can work together to identify the criteria that meets your needs best.

 

So often I'd hear from people who wouldn't apply and then get into a heated discussion in the job centre, end up leaving in a hurry and then finding they're about to be sanctioned.

 

I know someone is going to ask so I'll make it clear now. During my time there I raised a doubt on three occasions. Discretion has a limit.

[beezley]

Picture the scene at a local WP office, I say to my latest WP advisor, one of many....

 

"I can write a C.V and search for jobs online, look in papers, visit local employers, write spec letters, heck I can even do the rubiks cube"

 

after the advisor has a cursory look through my C.V, checks my spec and job application's.....

 

I ask (insert drum roll here) "How exactly can you help me?"

 

It's a question I asked an awful lot and found it very useful especially when I was met with a blank look. The thought of spending my time to no avail just doesn't seem right and so I'd ask what the person sat next to me wanted from the meeting and would not accept 'I dunno' as an answer. Starting the conversation was at least a beginning.

 

what follows, everyone has experienced (the usual mind numbing drivel)

[Chester6]

Picture the scene at a local WP office, I say to my latest WP advisor, one of many....

 

"I can write a C.V and search for jobs online, look in papers, visit local employers, write spec letters, heck I can even do the rubiks cube"

 

after the advisor has a cursory look through my C.V, checks my spec and job application's.....

 

I ask (insert drum roll here) "How exactly can you help me?"

 

 

 

what follows, everyone has experienced (the usual mind numbing drivel)

 

they are meant to talk to you and try to manipulate you into looking at other paths

they are meant to ask probing questions and try to persuade you that you can do something or other

it feels very manipulative

[beezley]

Yes psychology, or mind numbing drivel as I refer to it.

 

Sucking eggs springs to mind, having been both blue eyes and brown eyes in my career.

[Nystagmite]

they are meant to talk to you and try to manipulate you into looking at other paths

they are meant to ask probing questions and try to persuade you that you can do something or other

it feels very manipulative

 

They id this with me. I said retail. To me, that's working in a shop, scanning items for customers, etc. They wanted me to apply for a sales type job. I've been for two interviews for sales job. Both said in the nicest way possible, this job isn't for me.

[debt4get]

and of course....NLP!!! more utter tripe and nonsense

[Chester6]

and of course....NLP!!! more utter tripe and nonsense

 

What is NLP?

[stikky62]

Neuro-linguistic programming ?

 

and of course....NLP!!! more utter tripe and nonsense

 

I did a day's NLP 'training' once - I completely agree with the above...lol

Edited January 1, 2013 by stikky62

[RaeUK]

What is NLP?

 

Glad I'm not the only one ...

[estellyn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming